Toby’s blog

As a follow up to my blog on joint-degrees last semester, admissions staffer Julia Foresman sat in on an event organized by the HLS/HKS Association for Law and Policy (HALP) to discuss the option of pursuing a joint degree in Law and Government with the Harvard Kennedy School. The degree is geared toward students seeking an interdisciplinary study of government, policy, and law to prepare them for public sector careers. To complement their JD education, students may apply for either a Masters in Public Policy (MPP) or a Masters in Public Administration in International Development (MPA/ID).

Faculty committee member, Professor Philip Heymann began the informal discussion by insisting that the education of HKS could be invaluable to law students. “A good legal education instructs you in matters of policy… politics and economics are very relevant to lawyers today, yet they remain somewhat absent from the HLS curriculum,” he said. However, Heymann reminded students that the joint degree will cost them an extra year, and, further, he believes that the extra credential, in and of itself, will not necessarily add much to a student’s resume. Especially now, Heymann indicated, lawyers have an immense practical advantage in government, and the thought processes taught at both HLS and HKS, though salient alone, complement one another nicely. “I’m always amazed by how much students enjoy the program,” he said, “It really is an enjoyable and enriching social experience that will expose you to a group of professors who think very differently from lawyers.”

When asked specifically how HKS prepares law students for working on Capitol Hill, Heymann endorsed the value-add of the public policy degree. “The HLS degree itself will probably carry you as far as two degrees might, but there’s no question in my mind that the HKS degree will enable you to enjoy the job more and open you up to more diverse opportunities, especially in jobs where a working knowledge of statistics and economics are necessary. ” he said. “Further, students at HKS and HLS are exposed to fantastic analytical training which really comes to bear down the road.”

Among the joint HLS-HKS students who were there to pitch the value of the degree, 3^rd-year student, Brendan St. Amant called the MPP an MBA for do-gooders. “As friendly as everyone at HLS is, there is a greater focus at HKS on networking and interacting.” The students also alluded to possible shortcomings in HKS career service and loan forgiveness. “HLS is definitely much better in the area of serving students who want to work in the public sector,” said St. Amant.

…is getting easier. See this article.

In her State of the School Address, Dean Elena Kagan encouraged students to pursue cross-disciplinary work with other schools at Harvard University. Maybe that’s why the joint degree panel was packed to the brim with 1Ls thinking of branching out…

The most immediate question posed by the audience was “Why a joint-degree? Why not just cross-register or finish law school before applying to another graduate program?” As most of the panelists agreed, simply cross-registering limits one’s experience at a school whereas the joint-degree ensures a richer education. They also save those interested in pursuing multiple degrees time and tuition.

3^rd-year JD/MPP student Jeff Little said, “Because you won’t be able to take basic skill-building classes, you’re limited to very specialized courses that you think are pertinent to the area of law you’re interested in.” For Amit Doshi, who had worked for a few years in investment banking before returning to school, the ability to obtain both a JD and an MBA is a huge bonus for returning to finance. “Especially if you’re interested in corporate law,” he said, “The joint JD/MBA makes you more than a legal technician. In the business world, you become a strategic advisor.”

For Little, though having changed his mind about which area to pursue within Public Policy, he believed his degree made him immediately more specialized and thus, appealing to employers. “Depending on the type of law you want to pursue, a joint-degree signals to employers that you have an interest and that you’re serious about it.” Nee agreed and added, “Plus you make great connections with other schools… your network expands rapidly.”

Among the topics covered by the panelists, many students expressed particular interest in the purposefulness of the LLM and PhD programs. “If you’re serious about working in Europe and specifically Great Britain, it is worth your while to get the joint degree. You will be attractive to the Magic Circle Firms… I think few employers would consider it a disadvantage.”

On the topic of PhD programs, Melanie Penny and Candace Player (both JD-PhD joint degree candidates) stressed that while the advanced study would expose students to different skill sets than required in the JD program, there is little sense in pursuing a PhD if one’s intent is not to teach. “I just don’t see the point,” said Penny, “You should do it purposefully, as it is a huge time commitment.”

For more information, please visit the joint-degrees website.

One of the great advantages of Harvard Law School is that we are surrounded by terrific graduate schools…like the School of Public Health. I recently interviewed Professor Michelle Mello who is on the faculty there, but is teaching a course this semester at the Law School called Law & Public Health. I asked her about this course, her courses and research at the School of Public Health (hint: she does take on HLS students from time to time as research assistants), and the joint JD/MPH program that she helped put together.

Have a listen:

Podcast: Michelle Mello

As I read files, I like to imagine what the talented students I admit will one day accomplish. Odds are that I’m looking at applications from future senators and cabinet members, Supreme Court advocates (or maybe even a Justice), public defenders, business leaders, U.S. Attorneys, deal-makers, and more.

I also know that I am reading about the experiences and interests of dozens and dozens of future law professors. It wouldn’t surprise me if 60 or 70 members of the class of 2010 end up teaching the law all over the country (or world). And we work pretty hard here to prepare students to go down that path.

Many of these students take advantage of the other great schools and colleges at Harvard, by cross-registering or pursuing joint degrees. It is often helpful for entry-level legal academics to bring multiple disciplines to the table and many such potential faculty have masters degrees or PhDs in other fields, such as history, economics, philosophy, or government.

Now, with the help of some funds and support from a University interested in promoting interdisciplinary studies at Harvard, we are able to do a little more to assist students with broader interests. We’re going to be able to offer several students admitted this year to both HLS and a PhD program at the Harvard Graduate School of Arts & Sciences with partial or total funding for their JD tuition (through a kind of loan forgiveness program).

The exact number of grantees and level of funding will depend on the number of admitted students who fit the requirements. We’ll inform the grantees in April of their awards. Feel free to contact the admissions office with questions.

One of the most common questions I get while traveling to talk to groups of pre-law students is “What are the joint degree offerings at Harvard?” Perhaps as common is the question, “Should I do a joint degree?”

A great advantage of coming to Harvard Law School is Harvard University: the opportunity to take classes, attend events, or participate in activities at the many great graduate programs and schools in the community. Still, pursuing a joint degree is a much bigger commitment than just taking a few classes. There are quite a few to choose from (click here for more details), but how do you know if it’s a good idea for you to make that choice?

Maybe you should think in terms of the three Cs of joint degrees: career, community, and classroom learning. The first “c” is Career. What are the potential career paths of interest to you that could come out of that second degree? If you’re not sure, you should probably do some research. Get on the website for the Kennedy School or Graduate School of Design. What do their graduates do? Where do they go? Can you get those same jobs with just a JD? Many times you can, but not always.

Second, look at the Community. By just cross-registering for classes and participating in student groups, you may not be able to immerse yourself in the community at the other school. Maybe this is okay with you. But maybe you want to BE a Business School student as well as a Law School student. Maybe you want to be a part of that community of alumni throughout your career. If so, the joint degree makes more sense.

The third “c” is Classroom Learning. The ABA limits the number of credits a law student can take outside of law school, so cross-registration has its limits. If you are interested in quite a few classes offered at another institution, pursuing a joint degree may be the only way you can satisfy your broad interests.

In the end, a joint degree is a personal decision. Keep in mind that you apply to HLS and other Harvard schools separately. You can also apply after starting your 1L year. If you get into HLS and want to chat with students who are pursuing such options, I’ll be happy to put you in touch.

From time to time, applicants ask me about our joint degree offerings and what opportunities exist for those who decide to go down that path. A friend of mine, Justin Levitt ‘01, chose to pursue a joint degree with the Kennedy School of Government, and has told me about his career path over the last four or five years:

“Well, unlike Toby’s other recent postings, I’m not a professor, but I am surrounded by them. I’m an associate counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice, which is a legal nonprofit lodged at NYU School of Law.

“I got here more or less by just taking a plunge. I clerked for a federal judge for a year right after law school, and got involved in a presidential campaign pretty much right after that, going to Little Rock to help General Wes Clark. From there, a law school friend who’s probably by now up there with the country’s top progressive elections / nonprofit lawyers suggested I look at a “527″ organization called America Coming Together.

“I came on as their in-house lawyer in April of 2004, and by October, they’d become the country’s biggest independent voter registration and mobilization efforts — ever. And after the 2004 election cycle wound down, I moved up to New York to join my girlfriend, whom I’d met my 1L year — and who made me spectacularly happy this past New Year’s by agreeing to become my fianc�e. So the move to the Brennan Center was as much the location as it was the work. I’m extremely lucky to have found both in one great package.

“Though I always had an interest in helping to make a difference, I didn’t hit on my future career in preschool; like most folks probably do, I meandered my way through from interest to interest. I did a bunch of different stuff in college, and worked for a consulting firm for a few years in between college and law school. While I was at HLS, I got more and more interested in ways to put my law degree toward public service … and actually did a concurrent degree at the K-School, for an extra year. Through a series of summer jobs — a few of which HLS helped pay for — I got closer and closer to doing the sort of work I was really interested in. And now I’m here.”