March 15, 2003
Symposium, Panel 2
Harvard JOLT Copyright and Fair Use Symposium
Andy Moss, MS
Copy protection can work in the market place
Music and movie certainly are simlar
But really different in terms of strategy – movie has a number of revenue sources, whereas music primarily has one
Both industry have reacted very defensively, but people are starting to get smart and creative to think about how to use the Internet to their advantage
Greg Ballard, SonicBlue CEO
Legal expenses are at 3 million per quarter – large prcentage of operating expenses
Movie indstury slightly different since Betamax – instead of going after a big company, they go against small companies – the weak sheep in the flock. In efect, it odesn’t matter what the law says because corporations can’t afford to find out what the law says.
Doug Lichtman, Chicago Law professor
1. Norms matter – people moved and embraced norms of piracy without really knowing if it was wrong. Can’t just lean on law, norms matter – and that’s a responsibilty that we have.
2. Nuances matter – think about Betamax. Is that even a fleshed out, great principle? There are a lot of nuances – it can’t apply to everything in the same way. Napster isn’t the same as Betamax, for instance.
3. Trade-offs matter – think of Fisher’s plan. Is it worth harming broadband to get an efficient copyright problem? We can’t solve the copyright problem in isolation – have to consider other implicated parties.
Zittrain
Movie and music industry based on scarcity and control – not good or bad, just what happens to be the current situation
Eben Moglen, “Society has been underproducing pyramids since the time of the pharaohs.”
Economics have changed, so we don’t need pyramids any more.
Are movies pyramids in some ways? Our norms say that we must have 200 million dollar movies, we must ensure that at all costs. But is that norm correct/best?
As Andy was saying, examine where people are making their money – their profit streams. Leads to a basic economic that says, “If we can satisfy consuemrs and make friends with the content industry, we’re doing well.”
Current framework too limiting in some ways. Comes off sounding like everyone just wants to freeload or is getting all riled up over the fact that they can’t watch their DVD in their vacation home via an Internet connection. Those things are simply not gripping to an average audience.
Larger framework:
1. Locks are so effective that you limit access.
2. Building new works out of old
3. Keep network unbiased, retain e2e argument – don’t favor certain packets over others. Engine of innovation.
Question:
Zittrain:
People deserve remuneration
But, interesting that many artists don’t care about napster because they’re not making money out of the current model.
A system that appeals to artist might have a greater chance of success.
Ballard:
Working in the music industry, I was working with some of the dumbest people I have ever met. And I say that with the utmost respect.
These guys have a hard time innovating outside of their model.
But, the music industry is innovating. Presspay will ultimately be successful. They are changing.
Lichtman:
Music made the same mistake as movie industry: going after Napster was like going after VCR – seemed like they wanted to kill new technologies.
Moss:
Last 18th months, music industry has been making a clear step in right direction. Subscription services, 99 cents download. Consumers will vote which business model and offering makes sense, and you’ll probably see a diversity of offerings.
Also, look at the principles of music industry that they signed last month with tech companies – MPAA didn’t sign onto that. Music industry is realizeing that they’re approach needs to change.
Ballard:
Can’t have defensive strategy only – need to be defensive with some proactive solution. Need to change rhetoric with that.
Question: is MPAA changing too?
Ballard:
From my experience, no. Sticking to their guns, and their economic interests. You gotta expect them to do that, but they’re going to have to shift.
(missed a bit here)
Zittrain
ISps have been threatened in many ways because they’re having to take down files and to cut off access to certain sites. See Listen Forever case.
Moderator: how can laws foster norms?
Lichtman: can play a part. Has to be one part.
Zittrain: how do you think college students perceive piracy?
Lichtman: To college students, they’re kind of on the fence who do it anyway. Seven or eight year olds have no awareness.
Ballard:
There needs to be a campaign by record industry to establish that norm about piracy.
Question: how does the different cost of production form differences between movie and music industry?
Moss:
Cost is coming down in both organizations. And we’re needing less filtering mechanisms – that is, we have all sorts of ways to find out what’s good, we can read reviews all over the Internet.
Ballard:
Always have to go back to economic construct of the industry – movie industry is most worried by stuff like SonicBlue because it hurts profitabilty of Video-on-Demand services
Quesitno: what’s the problem with the pay per use society?
Zittrain:
Think of first sale – libraries couldn’t exist without it.
We recognize a benefit to the act of being able to have non-pay uses.
Ballard
Economic entities that will be making the pay per use choices are NOT fully competitive. That will crowd out other systems that could be better, that people might want.
Lichtman
DRM could really enable pay per use – also, could allow people to simply opt out of copyright.
Question: Why are we trying to shift norms? Education hasn’t worked, and in fact these norms of being able to share with lots of other people have some advantages. Why not put the effort into bringing law and norms together rather than re-educating people back to the way things were?
Moss:
Do want to recognize the value of stuff like P2P.
Also, norms aren’t static – they have changed a lot over the last 10 years. Still changing. And we can have a role in how they’re changing – we need to be aware of how they’re changing, that’s for certain. And that’s where education is important.
Question: also, are we having inconsistent messages that create inconsistent norms?
Moss:
Well, each medium needs to be treated differently. That’s ok – the way you know what personal uses are ok – so long as people understand the differences between how they fcan use different media
Ballard:
Norms are going to have to evolve, but at the end of the day, people do have a sense of what’s right and what’s wrong. Just need to bring those intuitive senses into line with the new environment
Zittrain
Why is it a problem that nine year olds don’t know that piracy is wrong?
Lichtman
Remember the trade-offs. Look at commercial skipping. That’s fine, but you might be losing free broadcast tv. Is that worth it?
Not saying that this is wrong – but we need to understand what the changes will entail. Need conversations.
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