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	<title>Comments on: How long before they build a wall there?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-there/</link>
	<description>Same old blog, brand new place</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:17:54 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Las Vegas DUI Lawyer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-there/comment-page-1/#comment-149638</link>
		<dc:creator>Las Vegas DUI Lawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 09:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-#comment-149638</guid>
		<description>According to my information, and the above commenter is correct, post 9/11 saw a much tighter border security on the Canadian side.  Which, is to be expected, which is what we should have done.  They switched to a much tighter border, no longer could you go to canada with criminal charges on your record and you need to present a passport, instead of just a driver&#039;s license, as in the past.

Also our government criminalied quite a bit of activity, which Canada didn&#039;t want a part of, i.e. prescription medicine, hospital visitation, cosmetic medicines.

It&#039;s a wonder you got in at all.  it&#039;s a wonder we haven&#039;t been over run.

But, after finding out about the truth about 9/11 I see why we had absolutely no border security change in policy.  LOL how transparent Bush was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to my information, and the above commenter is correct, post 9/11 saw a much tighter border security on the Canadian side.  Which, is to be expected, which is what we should have done.  They switched to a much tighter border, no longer could you go to canada with criminal charges on your record and you need to present a passport, instead of just a driver&#8217;s license, as in the past.</p>
<p>Also our government criminalied quite a bit of activity, which Canada didn&#8217;t want a part of, i.e. prescription medicine, hospital visitation, cosmetic medicines.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a wonder you got in at all.  it&#8217;s a wonder we haven&#8217;t been over run.</p>
<p>But, after finding out about the truth about 9/11 I see why we had absolutely no border security change in policy.  LOL how transparent Bush was.</p>
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		<title>By: Sue W.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-there/comment-page-1/#comment-17025</link>
		<dc:creator>Sue W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-#comment-17025</guid>
		<description>In my local boat yard, I was once asked by a truck driver from a far southern US state, &quot;Why the heck don&#039;t you guys join up with us?&quot;

I answered that most Canadians were probably rather too left wing for his taste, &quot;The last thing the U.S. needs is another 30 million Democrats.&quot; 

I was joking, though. 

As someone who&#039;s lived in U.S., Canada and part so Europe, easier borders would be a Good Thing. However in the present climate of FUD, it isn&#039;t likely to happen. Pity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my local boat yard, I was once asked by a truck driver from a far southern US state, &#8220;Why the heck don&#8217;t you guys join up with us?&#8221;</p>
<p>I answered that most Canadians were probably rather too left wing for his taste, &#8220;The last thing the U.S. needs is another 30 million Democrats.&#8221; </p>
<p>I was joking, though. </p>
<p>As someone who&#8217;s lived in U.S., Canada and part so Europe, easier borders would be a Good Thing. However in the present climate of FUD, it isn&#8217;t likely to happen. Pity.</p>
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		<title>By: Harry Bishop</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-there/comment-page-1/#comment-16750</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry Bishop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-#comment-16750</guid>
		<description>Hi Doc - Sorry to hear your travel issues. I&#039;ve experienced the same a number of times going the other way from here in Canada.

Most of the documentation requirement changes in the last several years were initiated by the US post-9/11. From my Canadian perspective I can understand the concern but it&#039;s been troubling being branded by the US as &quot;others&quot; quite so aggressively. It is calming down a bit recently, the latest changes mean we&#039;ll still needed passports to fly top or through the US, but we&#039;ll be able to use a photo ID and birth certificate to drive to the US. I&#039;m more unhappy with the travel restrictions and contortions we go through (I&#039;d be happy if they were actually effective in keeping out criminal people and materials, but they aren&#039;t).

Re the posted comment about &quot;Free Trade&quot;, having traveled and had my employees travel cross-border for several years both before and after NAFTA, I can say that all it really did from the perspective of a professional traveling between countries for consulting or speaking engagements, is add extra formality and documents to the existing process, it certainly did not make anything easier. I personally ended up having to get a TN visa for several years to be able to work jointly out of our Canada office and our US head office. Your job title and educational background determined if you could travel under &quot;Free Trade&quot;.

I&#039;m now out of that industry completely, so am not traveling very much at all these days. I hear that things are much easier for cross-border working travel in Europe, given how much closer our two countries are in everything (culture, economy, etc), I wish we had that arrangement here!

Thanks as always for the interesting writing.
Harry
http://www.harrybishop.ca</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Doc &#8211; Sorry to hear your travel issues. I&#8217;ve experienced the same a number of times going the other way from here in Canada.</p>
<p>Most of the documentation requirement changes in the last several years were initiated by the US post-9/11. From my Canadian perspective I can understand the concern but it&#8217;s been troubling being branded by the US as &#8220;others&#8221; quite so aggressively. It is calming down a bit recently, the latest changes mean we&#8217;ll still needed passports to fly top or through the US, but we&#8217;ll be able to use a photo ID and birth certificate to drive to the US. I&#8217;m more unhappy with the travel restrictions and contortions we go through (I&#8217;d be happy if they were actually effective in keeping out criminal people and materials, but they aren&#8217;t).</p>
<p>Re the posted comment about &#8220;Free Trade&#8221;, having traveled and had my employees travel cross-border for several years both before and after NAFTA, I can say that all it really did from the perspective of a professional traveling between countries for consulting or speaking engagements, is add extra formality and documents to the existing process, it certainly did not make anything easier. I personally ended up having to get a TN visa for several years to be able to work jointly out of our Canada office and our US head office. Your job title and educational background determined if you could travel under &#8220;Free Trade&#8221;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m now out of that industry completely, so am not traveling very much at all these days. I hear that things are much easier for cross-border working travel in Europe, given how much closer our two countries are in everything (culture, economy, etc), I wish we had that arrangement here!</p>
<p>Thanks as always for the interesting writing.<br />
Harry<br />
<a href="http://www.harrybishop.ca" rel="nofollow">http://www.harrybishop.ca</a></p>
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		<title>By: Russell Nelson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-there/comment-page-1/#comment-16480</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 07:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-#comment-16480</guid>
		<description>First, you don&#039;t need photo id to travel within the US.  They&#039;ll search you extra hard, but you CAN travel.

Second, you CAN take photos on public property of anything.  You may or may not have copyright difficulties depending on the subject of the photograph, but nobody can stop you from taking a photograph.  If somebody tries to stop you, just get passive-aggressive all over them.  &quot;Thanks for telling me&quot; and then you ignore them.  If they push the issue, and they have a badge, make a point of getting their badge number, ask them for their name, and then do what they say, BUT follow up with a complaint, because you&#039;re in the right and they&#039;re in the wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, you don&#8217;t need photo id to travel within the US.  They&#8217;ll search you extra hard, but you CAN travel.</p>
<p>Second, you CAN take photos on public property of anything.  You may or may not have copyright difficulties depending on the subject of the photograph, but nobody can stop you from taking a photograph.  If somebody tries to stop you, just get passive-aggressive all over them.  &#8220;Thanks for telling me&#8221; and then you ignore them.  If they push the issue, and they have a badge, make a point of getting their badge number, ask them for their name, and then do what they say, BUT follow up with a complaint, because you&#8217;re in the right and they&#8217;re in the wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Kellogg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-there/comment-page-1/#comment-16467</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Kellogg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 05:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-#comment-16467</guid>
		<description>What, clouds aint good enough to photograph from above? Just for that, may you have to deal with Louisiana State government on an extended basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What, clouds aint good enough to photograph from above? Just for that, may you have to deal with Louisiana State government on an extended basis.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-there/comment-page-1/#comment-16422</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 22:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-#comment-16422</guid>
		<description>&quot;there. I took a photo of the archway at the entrance to the WTC and the security guard came officiously waddling my way waving his arms shouting that I couldn’t take pictures&quot;

Interesting. Isn&#039;t that what occurs in China?

But we have it better over here, or so we are told...

Let&#039;s face it, we have decended into a police state. Democracy takes a lot of time and money. It&#039;s so much easier just to clamp down and extract confessions as needed. No high-priced lawyers, judges, or courtroom required. Corporations win --no pesky human rights or environmental protestors to worry about, just grease the wheels with the greenback to get it done.

History will repeat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;there. I took a photo of the archway at the entrance to the WTC and the security guard came officiously waddling my way waving his arms shouting that I couldn’t take pictures&#8221;</p>
<p>Interesting. Isn&#8217;t that what occurs in China?</p>
<p>But we have it better over here, or so we are told&#8230;</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s face it, we have decended into a police state. Democracy takes a lot of time and money. It&#8217;s so much easier just to clamp down and extract confessions as needed. No high-priced lawyers, judges, or courtroom required. Corporations win &#8211;no pesky human rights or environmental protestors to worry about, just grease the wheels with the greenback to get it done.</p>
<p>History will repeat.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-there/comment-page-1/#comment-16376</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 18:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-#comment-16376</guid>
		<description>Yet another case of what Schneir calls &quot;security theatre&quot;. Doc, you should be careful that you don&#039;t get too snide in your posts or you might earn yourself a place on Canada&#039;s no fly list (http://tinyurl.com/yoy2af)! 

I don&#039;t travel so much in my current work, but I used to cross the border semi-regularly, and as I have dual citizenship, I was often tempted to be as overtly and openly rude to the border officials as they are to me, but good sense has so far prevailed. In fairness, the rudeness most often comes from the underemployed village idiots doing the laughably ineffective security screening, or the inquisitors in training masquerading as &#039;customer service agents&#039; for the airlines.

Take the train next time, Doc. It takes longer, but hopefully there&#039;s wireless and bar service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yet another case of what Schneir calls &#8220;security theatre&#8221;. Doc, you should be careful that you don&#8217;t get too snide in your posts or you might earn yourself a place on Canada&#8217;s no fly list (<a href="http://tinyurl.com/yoy2af)" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/yoy2af)</a>! </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t travel so much in my current work, but I used to cross the border semi-regularly, and as I have dual citizenship, I was often tempted to be as overtly and openly rude to the border officials as they are to me, but good sense has so far prevailed. In fairness, the rudeness most often comes from the underemployed village idiots doing the laughably ineffective security screening, or the inquisitors in training masquerading as &#8216;customer service agents&#8217; for the airlines.</p>
<p>Take the train next time, Doc. It takes longer, but hopefully there&#8217;s wireless and bar service.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Paterson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-there/comment-page-1/#comment-16357</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Paterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-#comment-16357</guid>
		<description>How awful Doc
It is very hard going south too - I have a number of TN Visa&#039;s and have had some trying moments with HS. I find it very stressful.

I find it so odd that we have &quot;Free Trade&quot; that allows a lot of goods to cross the border but Consultants in particular - the yous and the mes - are seen as a major trade threat. Physical good yes - people with some thing inside their skulls - no

Go figure - how many Doc Searls are there in Canada? How many Rob&#039;s in the US? Ironically the more that you were here in the Frozen North the better - the field would expand</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How awful Doc<br />
It is very hard going south too &#8211; I have a number of TN Visa&#8217;s and have had some trying moments with HS. I find it very stressful.</p>
<p>I find it so odd that we have &#8220;Free Trade&#8221; that allows a lot of goods to cross the border but Consultants in particular &#8211; the yous and the mes &#8211; are seen as a major trade threat. Physical good yes &#8211; people with some thing inside their skulls &#8211; no</p>
<p>Go figure &#8211; how many Doc Searls are there in Canada? How many Rob&#8217;s in the US? Ironically the more that you were here in the Frozen North the better &#8211; the field would expand</p>
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		<title>By: Brent Ashley</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-there/comment-page-1/#comment-16345</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent Ashley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-#comment-16345</guid>
		<description>Ahh, I understand.  It&#039;s lamentable though that the preponderance of your countryfolk are not as well-read as you on current affairs.

I was in Boston in October speaking at a conference at the World Trade Center on the harbourfront there.  I took a photo of the archway at the entrance to the WTC and the security guard came officiously waddling my way waving his arms shouting that I couldn&#039;t take pictures.  I politely asked him why and he couldn&#039;t even articulate it - he simply pointed me to a notice he had on the side of his booth that said vague things about national security.  It was obvious that no amount of reason was going to fix the situation and that further conversation would just be asking for trouble, so I just gave up.  Good thing for me he didn&#039;t have a taser.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahh, I understand.  It&#8217;s lamentable though that the preponderance of your countryfolk are not as well-read as you on current affairs.</p>
<p>I was in Boston in October speaking at a conference at the World Trade Center on the harbourfront there.  I took a photo of the archway at the entrance to the WTC and the security guard came officiously waddling my way waving his arms shouting that I couldn&#8217;t take pictures.  I politely asked him why and he couldn&#8217;t even articulate it &#8211; he simply pointed me to a notice he had on the side of his booth that said vague things about national security.  It was obvious that no amount of reason was going to fix the situation and that further conversation would just be asking for trouble, so I just gave up.  Good thing for me he didn&#8217;t have a taser.</p>
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		<title>By: Doc Searls</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-there/comment-page-1/#comment-16274</link>
		<dc:creator>Doc Searls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 09:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2007/12/07/wonder-how-long-before-they-build-a-wall-#comment-16274</guid>
		<description>Brent, since &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/systems/mexico-wall.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;we&#039;re the ones talking&lt;/a&gt; (and legislating) about building a wall on the Mexican border, and since we&#039;re the ones hellbent on &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;ct=res&amp;cd=4&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.schneier.com%2Fblog%2Farchives%2F2006%2F07%2Fpassport_rules.html&amp;ei=mVlaR7WrKZaceebIkcEJ&amp;usg=AFQjCNH76MQbm4oj2K-tNf4fFhQElzP1XQ&amp;sig2=FfOP11NhUyWcxvtK_HG39g&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;security&lt;/a&gt;&quot; at all costs (including &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-5-14/41561.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;severe inconvenience to Canadians&lt;/a&gt;), and we&#039;re the ones who &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2006/76752.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;came up with the passport requirement in the first place&lt;/a&gt;, I thought the direction of the finger pointing in the &quot;wall&quot; reference was clear. Sorry if it wasn&#039;t. Wrote it, like most blog posts, in a hurry.

As for my reply to Pribek, above, the hole into which I fell on one visit (the one during which I met you, I believe), appeared when I made the mistake of telling the passport control officer I was in town to pick up a day&#039;s consulting work. Thus I fell into a long meeting with immigration officials who forced me to pay $150 or something and have a thick &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.migrationexpert.com/canada/visa/temporary_work_permit_canada.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Temporary Work Permit&lt;/a&gt; stapled into my passport. In fact, I had all but forgotten that episode during my most recent visit, made the mistake of saying I was in town for the board meeting of a Canadian company, and found myself in exactly the same time-consuming hole. Fortunately, I didn&#039;t need to get a permit this time because I didn&#039;t appear to be &quot;taking work from Canadians&quot;. Those were the exact words of the officer who interrogated me on the matter.

If I&#039;d had more time, I would have made a post suggesting an opposing vector for neighborly relations: a North American Union similar to the one enjoyed by Europeans. That&#039;s something, however, that is probably a political impossibility. So better just to snark about the ickyness of the Whole Thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brent, since <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/systems/mexico-wall.htm" rel="nofollow">we&#8217;re the ones talking</a> (and legislating) about building a wall on the Mexican border, and since we&#8217;re the ones hellbent on &#8220;<a href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;ct=res&amp;cd=4&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.schneier.com%2Fblog%2Farchives%2F2006%2F07%2Fpassport_rules.html&amp;ei=mVlaR7WrKZaceebIkcEJ&amp;usg=AFQjCNH76MQbm4oj2K-tNf4fFhQElzP1XQ&amp;sig2=FfOP11NhUyWcxvtK_HG39g" rel="nofollow">security</a>&#8221; at all costs (including <a href="http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-5-14/41561.html" rel="nofollow">severe inconvenience to Canadians</a>), and we&#8217;re the ones who <a href="http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2006/76752.htm" rel="nofollow">came up with the passport requirement in the first place</a>, I thought the direction of the finger pointing in the &#8220;wall&#8221; reference was clear. Sorry if it wasn&#8217;t. Wrote it, like most blog posts, in a hurry.</p>
<p>As for my reply to Pribek, above, the hole into which I fell on one visit (the one during which I met you, I believe), appeared when I made the mistake of telling the passport control officer I was in town to pick up a day&#8217;s consulting work. Thus I fell into a long meeting with immigration officials who forced me to pay $150 or something and have a thick <a href="http://www.migrationexpert.com/canada/visa/temporary_work_permit_canada.asp" rel="nofollow">Temporary Work Permit</a> stapled into my passport. In fact, I had all but forgotten that episode during my most recent visit, made the mistake of saying I was in town for the board meeting of a Canadian company, and found myself in exactly the same time-consuming hole. Fortunately, I didn&#8217;t need to get a permit this time because I didn&#8217;t appear to be &#8220;taking work from Canadians&#8221;. Those were the exact words of the officer who interrogated me on the matter.</p>
<p>If I&#8217;d had more time, I would have made a post suggesting an opposing vector for neighborly relations: a North American Union similar to the one enjoyed by Europeans. That&#8217;s something, however, that is probably a political impossibility. So better just to snark about the ickyness of the Whole Thing.</p>
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