f/k/a . . .

August 27, 2003

Do Law Schools (Or Ethics Classes) Make You More Ethical Or Less Ethical?

Filed under: pre-06-2006 — David Giacalone @ 10:15 pm

Homework Assignment:  Be prepared, after Labor Day, to discuss the above question.  [inspired by this article, via Overlawyered.com, and The Legal Reader, and MyShingle.] 

 

Read and Compare:

 

(1) Excerpt and posting from Sandefur’s Blog (August 1, 2003) (emphasis added):


I know I’m new, and naïve and all that, but I think lawyers are the most ethical people there are.  Obviously there are exceptions, just as there are unethical policemen or sports stars or whatever, but think about it—lawyers have to study ethics in school, must pass a test on it to get their license (in California, ethics is always on the bar, and you have to pass a separate ethics test, as well). Then throughout their career, lawyers must take continuing education classes in ethics, and they are constantly subject to disbarment if they act unethically. There are lawyers whose only job is to weed out unethical lawyers, and we have conferences and hotlines to handle ethics. There’s even an entire weblog devoted to legal ethics [Editor’s Note: yikes!] — are there weblogs devoted to the ethics of plumbers or electricians?


We have the ABA Code of Professional Responsibility, and the ABA Rules of Professional Conduct, and separate state codes of ethics, and, in California, lawyer’s ethics rules are actually written into the state statutes. (California Business and Professions Code §6068). As lawyers, of course, we are trained to ask “What does this word mean?”—and so we spend a lot of time covering ethical questions in that way.  For instance, I am legally required to “preserve at every peril to [my]self, the secrets of my client.” Does that mean, to the point of death? I don’t know—I doubt it—but what other profession spends that much time figuring out their responsibilities and applying them? I bet none.


This brings me to this infuriating article by Dennis Prager.  Now, I don’t know if Mr. Prager is a lawyer—he’s not licensed in California, anyway—but this article is written in total ignorance of the real world of the law.


(2) Excerpts and article from Dennis Prager, The legal system is now our enemy, (MensNewsDaily, June 3, 2003)



  • I have come to fear almost everything having to do with law. Though there are many fine people in the legal profession, and though law is necessary to protect society from descending into chaos, I now fear the legal profession more than I do Islamic terror. I am far from alone. I believe that more Americans rightly fear being ruined by the American legal system more than being killed by a terrorist.
  • Everything related to law has been corrupted.
  • Law schools . Most people leave law school morally worse than when they entered. When they enter law school, most students think in terms of right or wrong. In law school they are taught to reject such thinking and to think only in terms of legal and illegal. This transformation of morals into legal categories, reinforced most especially in trial law, and particularly among criminal defense lawyers, explains the proliferation of amoral lawyers and the destructive role many trial lawyers play in our society.
  • Lawyers . The best humor is almost always the truest humor. The funniest jokes I ever heard were those told by Soviet dissidents; the funniest today are about lawyers. Both types of jokes are so humorous because they come from the same place — bitterness at one’s helplessness against an overwhelming and oppressive power — the communist system in the Soviet Union, the legal system in America.

Two More Cents from Jack Cliente:   I bet the answer depends on why you went to law school.  If your gun’s for hire to any cause, so are your ethics.  Too many lawyers settle for being “more or less” ethical.


Extra Credit Reading: Do Codes of Ethics Actually Shape Legal Practice?  By Margaret Ann Wilkinson, Christa Walker & Peter Mercer,  (2000) 45 McGill L.J. 645



From the Synopsis: “The authors conclude that the research demonstrates a lack of reliance on professional codes for the purpose of resolving ethical issues by the majority of lawyers practising in Ontario. Moreover, the study revealed that such codes tend to inhibit ethical deliberation by those lawyers who refer to them for assistance in solving specific problems.”


ethicalEsq?ethicalEsq?ethicalEsq?


Thanks to Stark County Law Library Blawg and The U. Baltimore Law Library Weblog for pointing to this posting (on Aug. 28,, 2003), and to Overlawyered (Aug. 29, 2003), with the great caption “Ethical Efficacy”.

10 Comments »

  1. Do ethics classes make you more ethical? No, reward systems make you more ethical or less so whether you are a lawyer, a military officer, or a Catholic priest, or any other occupation.

    It is strictly against medical ethics for a doctor to have sex with a patient. Nowhere is this more true than in psychiatry. A survey in 1986 of 1,057 male and 366 female psychiatrists revealed that 7% of the men and 3% of the women had had sex with their patients. Yet, the greater scandal is the result of the second survey, which reported that two-thirds of the psychiatrists discovered evidence of colleagues having had sex with patients but only 8% of them reported it. The penalty for being a stool pigeon is high while the benefit is nil so few of them do it.

    According to Alan Dershowitz, the disbarment of Roy Cohn was a case of selective prosecution. That is a claim that many other lawyers are as culpable as Cohn yet were not penalized for similar offenses such as perjury and forgery. Yet, if this is true, why hasn’t Dershowitz reported them? The reputation of the legal profession rests on the shoulders of all of the lawyers who are obliged not only to obey but to enforce legal ethics as officers of the court but like Dershowitz most of them just shrug.

    Comment by John J. Olson — September 3, 2003 @ 5:11 pm

  2. Do ethics classes make you more ethical? No, reward systems make you more ethical or less so whether you are a lawyer, a military officer, or a Catholic priest, or any other occupation.

    It is strictly against medical ethics for a doctor to have sex with a patient. Nowhere is this more true than in psychiatry. A survey in 1986 of 1,057 male and 366 female psychiatrists revealed that 7% of the men and 3% of the women had had sex with their patients. Yet, the greater scandal is the result of the second survey, which reported that two-thirds of the psychiatrists discovered evidence of colleagues having had sex with patients but only 8% of them reported it. The penalty for being a stool pigeon is high while the benefit is nil so few of them do it.

    According to Alan Dershowitz, the disbarment of Roy Cohn was a case of selective prosecution. That is a claim that many other lawyers are as culpable as Cohn yet were not penalized for similar offenses such as perjury and forgery. Yet, if this is true, why hasn’t Dershowitz reported them? The reputation of the legal profession rests on the shoulders of all of the lawyers who are obliged not only to obey but to enforce legal ethics as officers of the court but like Dershowitz most of them just shrug.

    Comment by John J. Olson — September 3, 2003 @ 5:11 pm

  3. Thanks for a provocative and thoughtful Comment.  It’s disappointing that so few lawyers take the responsibility to report serious ethical violations that they know about.   As I have stated elsewhere on this site, it is even more disappointing that bar counsel often ignore complaints by lawyers, because most of the ones they do receive are poorly disguised attempts to injure a competitor (e.g., complaints about purportedly deceptive ads).   The legal profession, like most other privileged groups in our society, does too good of a job “rewarding” those who go along to get along and penalizing those who rock the boat.  I believe that the most effective “rewards system” for achieving ethical conduct is the inner reward and self-respect that each person can feel when he or she does the right, ethical thing.   I have no idea how to produce such a system in individuals who lack it.  Certainly, attorney self-regulation has has not been the solution.
     

    Comment by David Giacalone — September 3, 2003 @ 10:12 pm

  4. Thanks for a provocative and thoughtful Comment.  It’s disappointing that so few lawyers take the responsibility to report serious ethical violations that they know about.   As I have stated elsewhere on this site, it is even more disappointing that bar counsel often ignore complaints by lawyers, because most of the ones they do receive are poorly disguised attempts to injure a competitor (e.g., complaints about purportedly deceptive ads).   The legal profession, like most other privileged groups in our society, does too good of a job “rewarding” those who go along to get along and penalizing those who rock the boat.  I believe that the most effective “rewards system” for achieving ethical conduct is the inner reward and self-respect that each person can feel when he or she does the right, ethical thing.   I have no idea how to produce such a system in individuals who lack it.  Certainly, attorney self-regulation has has not been the solution.
     

    Comment by David Giacalone — September 3, 2003 @ 10:12 pm

  5. yes, i need to learn ethics

    Comment by helin — September 17, 2003 @ 8:44 am

  6. yes, i need to learn ethics

    Comment by helin — September 17, 2003 @ 8:44 am

  7. in order to be more ethical or less ethical?
    are you a koan law expert? 
    Nova Scotia must be lovely this time of year.  enjoy 

    Comment by David Giacalone — September 17, 2003 @ 10:54 am

  8. in order to be more ethical or less ethical?
    are you a koan law expert? 
    Nova Scotia must be lovely this time of year.  enjoy 

    Comment by David Giacalone — September 17, 2003 @ 10:54 am

  9. Thank you for the info. http://www.bignews.com

    Comment by Sofia — August 25, 2005 @ 4:49 am

  10. Thank you for the info. http://www.bignews.com

    Comment by Sofia — August 25, 2005 @ 4:49 am

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Do Law Schools (Or Ethics Classes) Make You More Ethical Or Less Ethical?

Filed under: pre-06-2006 — David Giacalone @ 10:15 pm

Homework Assignment:  Be prepared, after Labor Day, to discuss the above question.  [inspired by this article, via Overlawyered.com, and The Legal Reader, and MyShingle.] 

 

Read and Compare:

 

(1) Excerpt and posting from Sandefur’s Blog (August 1, 2003) (emphasis added):


I know I’m new, and naïve and all that, but I think lawyers are the most ethical people there are.  Obviously there are exceptions, just as there are unethical policemen or sports stars or whatever, but think about it—lawyers have to study ethics in school, must pass a test on it to get their license (in California, ethics is always on the bar, and you have to pass a separate ethics test, as well). Then throughout their career, lawyers must take continuing education classes in ethics, and they are constantly subject to disbarment if they act unethically. There are lawyers whose only job is to weed out unethical lawyers, and we have conferences and hotlines to handle ethics. There’s even an entire weblog devoted to legal ethics [Editor’s Note: yikes!] — are there weblogs devoted to the ethics of plumbers or electricians?


We have the ABA Code of Professional Responsibility, and the ABA Rules of Professional Conduct, and separate state codes of ethics, and, in California, lawyer’s ethics rules are actually written into the state statutes. (California Business and Professions Code §6068). As lawyers, of course, we are trained to ask “What does this word mean?”—and so we spend a lot of time covering ethical questions in that way.  For instance, I am legally required to “preserve at every peril to [my]self, the secrets of my client.” Does that mean, to the point of death? I don’t know—I doubt it—but what other profession spends that much time figuring out their responsibilities and applying them? I bet none.


This brings me to this infuriating article by Dennis Prager.  Now, I don’t know if Mr. Prager is a lawyer—he’s not licensed in California, anyway—but this article is written in total ignorance of the real world of the law.


(2) Excerpts and article from Dennis Prager, The legal system is now our enemy, (MensNewsDaily, June 3, 2003)



  • I have come to fear almost everything having to do with law. Though there are many fine people in the legal profession, and though law is necessary to protect society from descending into chaos, I now fear the legal profession more than I do Islamic terror. I am far from alone. I believe that more Americans rightly fear being ruined by the American legal system more than being killed by a terrorist.
  • Everything related to law has been corrupted.
  • Law schools . Most people leave law school morally worse than when they entered. When they enter law school, most students think in terms of right or wrong. In law school they are taught to reject such thinking and to think only in terms of legal and illegal. This transformation of morals into legal categories, reinforced most especially in trial law, and particularly among criminal defense lawyers, explains the proliferation of amoral lawyers and the destructive role many trial lawyers play in our society.
  • Lawyers . The best humor is almost always the truest humor. The funniest jokes I ever heard were those told by Soviet dissidents; the funniest today are about lawyers. Both types of jokes are so humorous because they come from the same place — bitterness at one’s helplessness against an overwhelming and oppressive power — the communist system in the Soviet Union, the legal system in America.

Two More Cents from Jack Cliente:   I bet the answer depends on why you went to law school.  If your gun’s for hire to any cause, so are your ethics.  Too many lawyers settle for being “more or less” ethical.


Extra Credit Reading: Do Codes of Ethics Actually Shape Legal Practice?  By Margaret Ann Wilkinson, Christa Walker & Peter Mercer,  (2000) 45 McGill L.J. 645



From the Synopsis: “The authors conclude that the research demonstrates a lack of reliance on professional codes for the purpose of resolving ethical issues by the majority of lawyers practising in Ontario. Moreover, the study revealed that such codes tend to inhibit ethical deliberation by those lawyers who refer to them for assistance in solving specific problems.”


ethicalEsq?ethicalEsq?ethicalEsq?


Thanks to Stark County Law Library Blawg and The U. Baltimore Law Library Weblog for pointing to this posting (on Aug. 28,, 2003), and to Overlawyered (Aug. 29, 2003), with the great caption “Ethical Efficacy”.

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