Your site is realy very interesting!

Your site is realy very interesting!

Hi, Sherry, I was hoping you’d give us your perspective (recently grad plus bankruptcy maven). Your points are well taken.

What do you think about folks who live rather a high life in the student years (e.g., new car loans or leases, expensive cell phone plans, lots of electronics and gadgets, spring break vacations, dining and partying out bills, etc.)? Would discharging a five-digit credit card debt right out of school be relevant to bar character issues? Old fogeys (who lived on a real “student” budget and never had a car until after law school) want to know.

Hi, Sherry, I was hoping you’d give us your perspective (recently grad plus bankruptcy maven). Your points are well taken.

What do you think about folks who live rather a high life in the student years (e.g., new car loans or leases, expensive cell phone plans, lots of electronics and gadgets, spring break vacations, dining and partying out bills, etc.)? Would discharging a five-digit credit card debt right out of school be relevant to bar character issues? Old fogeys (who lived on a real “student” budget and never had a car until after law school) want to know.

Tex said it first, but the better solution for the Brits is not to make the legitimate availment of a legal course of action a bar to lawyerdom, but rather to try to curtail the dischargeability of those debts that might permit someone to abuse the system. Student loans are EXTREMELY hard to discharge in the U.S., (perhaps too hard) so bankruptcy can be a remedy that acknowledges hard times (and as A.C. pointed out hard times themselves absolutely DO NOT indicate some kind of moral flaw in the human being they happen to) without giving recent law or medicine grads a “get out of expensive tuition debt free” ticket.

I find the “morality police” aspect of the bar overseers really hard to swallow. Just another barrier to entry for people who didn’t follow a particular, conventially-accepted path into the profession.

Tex said it first, but the better solution for the Brits is not to make the legitimate availment of a legal course of action a bar to lawyerdom, but rather to try to curtail the dischargeability of those debts that might permit someone to abuse the system. Student loans are EXTREMELY hard to discharge in the U.S., (perhaps too hard) so bankruptcy can be a remedy that acknowledges hard times (and as A.C. pointed out hard times themselves absolutely DO NOT indicate some kind of moral flaw in the human being they happen to) without giving recent law or medicine grads a “get out of expensive tuition debt free” ticket.

I find the “morality police” aspect of the bar overseers really hard to swallow. Just another barrier to entry for people who didn’t follow a particular, conventially-accepted path into the profession.

Great point, Tex.  Just this morning, I had made a mental note to check this out, but then forgot to do it.  I just looked at the webpage you cited, and it does a very good job explaining the issue of discharging student loans – basically, you can’t do it if the loan is made for educational purposes by a nonprofit organization or a program supported by government funds, unless there is a showing of special hardship.  School expenses charged on credit cards are dischargeable.    Thanks for this helpful tip.

Great point, Tex.  Just this morning, I had made a mental note to check this out, but then forgot to do it.  I just looked at the webpage you cited, and it does a very good job explaining the issue of discharging student loans – basically, you can’t do it if the loan is made for educational purposes by a nonprofit organization or a program supported by government funds, unless there is a showing of special hardship.  School expenses charged on credit cards are dischargeable.    Thanks for this helpful tip.

…should be noted that educational loans are difficult to discharge through bankruptcy. See
http://www.finaid.org/questions/bankruptcy.phtml

…should be noted that educational loans are difficult to discharge through bankruptcy. See
http://www.finaid.org/questions/bankruptcy.phtml

Dear A.C., I’m sorry that you’ve had to deal with so much financial (and therefore personal) travail. My question did not concern all people who choose bankruptcy. It concerns recently graduated lawyers (most young and with no stories of tribulation like your own), who went to school knowing it would be expensive and would come out with a valuable degree. They choose the “easy” way of bankruptcy before any attempt to responsibly meet their obligations.
I asked if that scenario should be taken into account when deciding whether such folks are to become fiduciaries and officers of the court. I think a lot of clients would think it relevant when dealing with a profession whose integrity they often doubt.
I am not judging all who choose bankruptcy, although there clearly are people who abuse that system.  When my chronic illness struck and took away my livelihood, I also considered bankruptcy.   I think you might reconsdier dealing with credit counseling agencies, to see if they come up with a plan you can handle. Check the FTC website [ http://www.ftc.gov ]for info on choosing such an agency and protecting your rights. Credit card companies often do subsidize these agencies, because the companies would much rather have you pay some slowly than go bankrupt. That doesn’t necessarily make the agency less objective than when you deal directly with the credit card companies.
Good luck.

Dear A.C., I’m sorry that you’ve had to deal with so much financial (and therefore personal) travail. My question did not concern all people who choose bankruptcy. It concerns recently graduated lawyers (most young and with no stories of tribulation like your own), who went to school knowing it would be expensive and would come out with a valuable degree. They choose the “easy” way of bankruptcy before any attempt to responsibly meet their obligations.
I asked if that scenario should be taken into account when deciding whether such folks are to become fiduciaries and officers of the court. I think a lot of clients would think it relevant when dealing with a profession whose integrity they often doubt.
I am not judging all who choose bankruptcy, although there clearly are people who abuse that system.  When my chronic illness struck and took away my livelihood, I also considered bankruptcy.   I think you might reconsdier dealing with credit counseling agencies, to see if they come up with a plan you can handle. Check the FTC website [ http://www.ftc.gov ]for info on choosing such an agency and protecting your rights. Credit card companies often do subsidize these agencies, because the companies would much rather have you pay some slowly than go bankrupt. That doesn’t necessarily make the agency less objective than when you deal directly with the credit card companies.
Good luck.

I am a former software developer. Back in the good ol’ days, I made decent money, and was smart and saved a good portion of it. Then along came the double whammy of “economic downturn” and “overseas outsourcing”. To cut to the chase, since I was frequently employed as a 1099 worker, when I lost work over two years ago, I was not able to collect unemployment. I have also not been able to find a full time job. I’ve applied for jobs far below my training level and been rejected several times… citing “You’ll just leave when something better comes along.” I’ve been making ends not-quite-meet and supporting my also unemployed wife off part time gigs and whatever menial labor I can find. But we have expenses like a mortgage and car payments, things I don’t find unreasonable. We tapped our savings about a year ago, and, ever faithful of an economic recovery, lived off our credit cards for a while. Neither one of us comes from money, our families have helped when they can, but they can’t always afford it either. Now, a year after this, the creditors are gathered outside our door and salivating like wolves. They want their money. I want to give them their money. I can’t. I simply can’t. Are any of them willing to work with us? No. Several referred us to some “credit counseling agencies” who “work with us to lower your interest rates and payments”. When faced with this option, I asked why I had to pay an outside agency a setup fee and a monthly fee, why couldn’t I just negotiate a lower rate/payment directly with them, I was told (repeatedly) it was a matter of policy. Being who I am, I did some research: policy is that many of the “consumer credit agencies” are actually owned in whole or in part by the credit card companies themselves. So how objective can they be? So now, we are facing bankruptcy, and not for want of a better solution. We’ve tried to negotiate with creditors unsuccessfully. We’ve both been actively trying to get work in our respective fields, to no avail. We’ve both taken lower paying, unskilled jobs when we could to try to make ends meet. But we’re still going to (most likely) have to file. Can you explain to me exactly how this is supposed to indicate some weakness in our character? That’s total [b.s.].

I am a former software developer. Back in the good ol’ days, I made decent money, and was smart and saved a good portion of it. Then along came the double whammy of “economic downturn” and “overseas outsourcing”. To cut to the chase, since I was frequently employed as a 1099 worker, when I lost work over two years ago, I was not able to collect unemployment. I have also not been able to find a full time job. I’ve applied for jobs far below my training level and been rejected several times… citing “You’ll just leave when something better comes along.” I’ve been making ends not-quite-meet and supporting my also unemployed wife off part time gigs and whatever menial labor I can find. But we have expenses like a mortgage and car payments, things I don’t find unreasonable. We tapped our savings about a year ago, and, ever faithful of an economic recovery, lived off our credit cards for a while. Neither one of us comes from money, our families have helped when they can, but they can’t always afford it either. Now, a year after this, the creditors are gathered outside our door and salivating like wolves. They want their money. I want to give them their money. I can’t. I simply can’t. Are any of them willing to work with us? No. Several referred us to some “credit counseling agencies” who “work with us to lower your interest rates and payments”. When faced with this option, I asked why I had to pay an outside agency a setup fee and a monthly fee, why couldn’t I just negotiate a lower rate/payment directly with them, I was told (repeatedly) it was a matter of policy. Being who I am, I did some research: policy is that many of the “consumer credit agencies” are actually owned in whole or in part by the credit card companies themselves. So how objective can they be? So now, we are facing bankruptcy, and not for want of a better solution. We’ve tried to negotiate with creditors unsuccessfully. We’ve both been actively trying to get work in our respective fields, to no avail. We’ve both taken lower paying, unskilled jobs when we could to try to make ends meet. But we’re still going to (most likely) have to file. Can you explain to me exactly how this is supposed to indicate some weakness in our character? That’s total [b.s.].

An intereting question.

When I first got out of law school, I was essentially unemployed for six months, working about 15 hours a week at a local bookstore while traveling all over Mississippi looking for jobs. I was tempted several times to declare bankruptcy, but fortunately did not have to.

I’m a little sceptical about young lawyers that have declared bankruptcy, especially given the inherent ease of dealing with creditors when you are a lawyer. I am far less concerned about people who have declared bankruptcy becoming lawyers, though. And I can’t really say why.

An intereting question.

When I first got out of law school, I was essentially unemployed for six months, working about 15 hours a week at a local bookstore while traveling all over Mississippi looking for jobs. I was tempted several times to declare bankruptcy, but fortunately did not have to.

I’m a little sceptical about young lawyers that have declared bankruptcy, especially given the inherent ease of dealing with creditors when you are a lawyer. I am far less concerned about people who have declared bankruptcy becoming lawyers, though. And I can’t really say why.