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	<title>Comments on: the heedless snowman</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2004/12/27/the-heedless-snowman/</link>
	<description>breathless punditry and one-breath poetry with David Giacalone</description>
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		<title>By: David Giacalone</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2004/12/27/the-heedless-snowman/comment-page-1/#comment-5678</link>
		<dc:creator>David Giacalone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/formerlyknownas/2004/12/27/the-heedless-snowman/#comment-5678</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Well, Michael,&#160;I was thinking we were getting too adversarial, so I&#039;m glad you&#039;ve brought the conversation around to something upon which we both agree:&#160; (As I have stated over at Evan Schaeffer&#039;s Underground and elsewhere,) the content of most law student weblogs has more in common with the archetypal 13-year-old blogger than with adult weblawgers.&#160; If one is looking for material that might sustain the interest of thinking adults -- professionally, intellectually, politically, socially, or as entertainment and leisure fare -- the law student weblogs that might be worth a visit are relatively few.&#160; 
Please don&#039;t go around thinking that I am unaware of the ethical obtuseness and lack of responsibility, maturity,&#160;and insight of your generation (regardless of IQ, the general EQ is staggeringly low).&#160; [Prof. Yabut talked about&#160;such things&#160;in the post &lt;A href=&quot;http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2004/04/30#a1405&quot;&gt;the ethics of the Whatever Generations&lt;/A&gt;.]&#160; However, I can&#039;t believe that Profs. Kerr and Froomkin, Will Baude, Evan Schaeffer and others took up this topic simply to remind remarkably immature, self-absorbed&#160;young adults that gossiping is not nice,&#160;that revealing secrets is&#160;generally bad, and that there is little anonymity in the blogosphere (so, blogged words can come back to bite ya).&#160; Whatever such advice might be called (and &quot;ethics&quot; seems way too grand), it is difficult to believe (1) that it took a lot of thought to reach those conclusions, and (2) that the resulting&#160;pooled wisdom&#160;of &quot;blogging ethics&quot; is deep, rather than shallow.
If you asked every law student weblawger, he or she [and, I must say that I&#039;m assuming that most of the worst offenders are male] would tell you they already knew all of the important&#160;concepts stated in the last paragraph and in your posting.&#160; The reality is they just don&#039;t care because, like adolescents, they believe they are invincible, invisible, or at the least immune from all consequences.&#160;&#160; They do not need a simple &quot;don&#039;t reveal secrets and don&#039;t gossip, or else.&quot;&#160;&#160; I agree that they need a lot of guidance about&#160;dealing with&#160;confidences and about socially appropriate subject matter; but, you have provided them with very little.&#160;
I&#039;m not going to go point by point with you about who&#039;s&#160;is or is not taking your words out of context or failing to see the entire context (but, I&#039;m pretty sure we disagree).&#160; My bottom line:&#160;&#160;Your distilled message gives little or no useful guidance, even if we assume the audience is ethically and intellectuall challenged&#160;[&quot;Just Say Nothing&quot; is the equivalent of&#160;preaching &quot;Just Say No&quot; to drugs or sex -- it might work for &lt;EM&gt;part&lt;/EM&gt; of the choir, but it won&#039;t make any converts.].&#160; As my original blurb says:
&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt;
&lt;EM&gt;Any law student weblogger who doesn&#039;t realize he or she needs to be circumpect&lt;/EM&gt;&lt;A href=&quot;http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2004_12_21.shtml#1103916194&quot;&gt;&lt;STRONG&gt;&lt;EM&gt; &lt;/EM&gt;&lt;/STRONG&gt;&lt;/A&gt;
&lt;EM&gt;with what is said on a weblog (whether anonymous or not) doesn&#039;t have the common &lt;/EM&gt;
&lt;EM&gt;sense needed to be a lawyer.&lt;/EM&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;
In a way, Micahel, you are a victim of your reputation and prior work&#160;-- seeing that you&#160;claimed&#160;to&#160;have something to say (in more than one post)&#160;on &quot;Blogging Ethics,&quot; I was expecting your usual insight and went away disappointed.&#160;&#160; I&#039;m not going to lower my expectations, but I will lower my voice, because I want the two of us in communication and listenting to each other.</description>
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<p>Well, Michael,&nbsp;I was thinking we were getting too adversarial, so I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;ve brought the conversation around to something upon which we both agree:&nbsp; (As I have stated over at Evan Schaeffer&#8217;s Underground and elsewhere,) the content of most law student weblogs has more in common with the archetypal 13-year-old blogger than with adult weblawgers.&nbsp; If one is looking for material that might sustain the interest of thinking adults &#8212; professionally, intellectually, politically, socially, or as entertainment and leisure fare &#8212; the law student weblogs that might be worth a visit are relatively few.&nbsp;<br />
Please don&#8217;t go around thinking that I am unaware of the ethical obtuseness and lack of responsibility, maturity,&nbsp;and insight of your generation (regardless of IQ, the general EQ is staggeringly low).&nbsp; [Prof. Yabut talked about&nbsp;such things&nbsp;in the post <a href="http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2004/04/30#a1405">the ethics of the Whatever Generations</a>.]&nbsp; However, I can&#8217;t believe that Profs. Kerr and Froomkin, Will Baude, Evan Schaeffer and others took up this topic simply to remind remarkably immature, self-absorbed&nbsp;young adults that gossiping is not nice,&nbsp;that revealing secrets is&nbsp;generally bad, and that there is little anonymity in the blogosphere (so, blogged words can come back to bite ya).&nbsp; Whatever such advice might be called (and &#8220;ethics&#8221; seems way too grand), it is difficult to believe (1) that it took a lot of thought to reach those conclusions, and (2) that the resulting&nbsp;pooled wisdom&nbsp;of &#8220;blogging ethics&#8221; is deep, rather than shallow.<br />
If you asked every law student weblawger, he or she [and, I must say that I'm assuming that most of the worst offenders are male] would tell you they already knew all of the important&nbsp;concepts stated in the last paragraph and in your posting.&nbsp; The reality is they just don&#8217;t care because, like adolescents, they believe they are invincible, invisible, or at the least immune from all consequences.&nbsp;&nbsp; They do not need a simple &#8220;don&#8217;t reveal secrets and don&#8217;t gossip, or else.&#8221;&nbsp;&nbsp; I agree that they need a lot of guidance about&nbsp;dealing with&nbsp;confidences and about socially appropriate subject matter; but, you have provided them with very little.&nbsp;<br />
I&#8217;m not going to go point by point with you about who&#8217;s&nbsp;is or is not taking your words out of context or failing to see the entire context (but, I&#8217;m pretty sure we disagree).&nbsp; My bottom line:&nbsp;&nbsp;Your distilled message gives little or no useful guidance, even if we assume the audience is ethically and intellectuall challenged&nbsp;["Just Say Nothing" is the equivalent of&nbsp;preaching "Just Say No" to drugs or sex -- it might work for <em>part</em> of the choir, but it won't make any converts.].&nbsp; As my original blurb says:</p>
<blockquote><p>
<em>Any law student weblogger who doesn&#8217;t realize he or she needs to be circumpect</em><a href="http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2004_12_21.shtml#1103916194"><strong><em> </em></strong></a><br />
<em>with what is said on a weblog (whether anonymous or not) doesn&#8217;t have the common </em><br />
<em>sense needed to be a lawyer.</em></p></blockquote>
<p>In a way, Micahel, you are a victim of your reputation and prior work&nbsp;&#8211; seeing that you&nbsp;claimed&nbsp;to&nbsp;have something to say (in more than one post)&nbsp;on &#8220;Blogging Ethics,&#8221; I was expecting your usual insight and went away disappointed.&nbsp;&nbsp; I&#8217;m not going to lower my expectations, but I will lower my voice, because I want the two of us in communication and listenting to each other.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2004/12/27/the-heedless-snowman/comment-page-1/#comment-5677</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/formerlyknownas/2004/12/27/the-heedless-snowman/#comment-5677</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Do law students need a lot of guidance on this topic?&lt;/em&gt;

Yes - sadly.  We come from different generations, David.  Finding someone my age who can keep a secret is very difficult.

My post addressed a narrow issue.  Prof. Rosen, in his NYT Magazine article suggested that law school conversations are a blog free zone.  I suggested otherwise, and I laid down a few things &lt;em&gt;law students&lt;/em&gt; should consider before blogging.  Again, I&#039;m not sure what&#039;s shallow about my post.  Maybe it&#039;s cynical to think that most people don&#039;t act unless it&#039;s in their self-interest.

I also wrote that &quot;Moreover, the student who &lt;em&gt;talks about his professors&lt;/em&gt; is unlikely to develop a close relationship with any professor.&quot;  I think that &quot;talks about his professors&quot; would lead a reasonable reader to conclude that this means gossiping.  A lot of students talk how their professors teach, what they wear, whom they date, etc.  That&#039;s all garbage and should be avoided.  But it&#039;s &lt;em&gt;the&lt;/em&gt; topic at many law student blogs.

&lt;me&gt;By your own words, the lawyer keeps a secret unless &quot;it serves a strategy.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

Nope.  You&#039;re being an advocate rather than a truth-seeker by selectively quoting from my post.  I said that the best lawyers say &lt;em&gt;nothing&lt;/em&gt; unless it serves a tactical purpose.  (Secrets are never revealed).

&lt;em&gt;Let&#039;s try a little harder to say something that would actually help the inquirers do the right thing.&lt;/em&gt;

Well, the post was not written for you, Orin Kerr, Ken Lammers, Evan Schaeffer, Tung Yin, or the numerous other people whose discretion can&#039;t be questioned.  It was addressed for a group (which is a lot larger than you might think) whose first inclination is to blog about the juice.</description>
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<p><em>Do law students need a lot of guidance on this topic?</em></p>
<p>Yes &#8211; sadly.  We come from different generations, David.  Finding someone my age who can keep a secret is very difficult.</p>
<p>My post addressed a narrow issue.  Prof. Rosen, in his NYT Magazine article suggested that law school conversations are a blog free zone.  I suggested otherwise, and I laid down a few things <em>law students</em> should consider before blogging.  Again, I&#8217;m not sure what&#8217;s shallow about my post.  Maybe it&#8217;s cynical to think that most people don&#8217;t act unless it&#8217;s in their self-interest.</p>
<p>I also wrote that &#8220;Moreover, the student who <em>talks about his professors</em> is unlikely to develop a close relationship with any professor.&#8221;  I think that &#8220;talks about his professors&#8221; would lead a reasonable reader to conclude that this means gossiping.  A lot of students talk how their professors teach, what they wear, whom they date, etc.  That&#8217;s all garbage and should be avoided.  But it&#8217;s <em>the</em> topic at many law student blogs.</p>
<p>&lt;me&gt;By your own words, the lawyer keeps a secret unless &#8220;it serves a strategy.&#8221;</p>
<p>Nope.  You&#8217;re being an advocate rather than a truth-seeker by selectively quoting from my post.  I said that the best lawyers say <em>nothing</em> unless it serves a tactical purpose.  (Secrets are never revealed).</p>
<p><em>Let&#8217;s try a little harder to say something that would actually help the inquirers do the right thing.</em></p>
<p>Well, the post was not written for you, Orin Kerr, Ken Lammers, Evan Schaeffer, Tung Yin, or the numerous other people whose discretion can&#8217;t be questioned.  It was addressed for a group (which is a lot larger than you might think) whose first inclination is to blog about the juice.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2004/12/27/the-heedless-snowman/comment-page-1/#comment-5675</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/formerlyknownas/2004/12/27/the-heedless-snowman/#comment-5675</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;em&gt;And, please don&#039;t assume that every law professor is so shallow or thin-skinned that she or he can&#039;t take constructive, diplomatic criticism.&lt;/em&gt;

Aha.  Perhaps a re-reading my post would be helpful.  There I wrote: &quot;&lt;em&gt;Unless you&#039;re critically analyzing something a professor has said in public&lt;/em&gt;, nothing is probably the best thing to blog about.&quot;  You should also note that the reasons I gave for being quiet were in furtherance of a virtue.  I wrote: &quot;The best lawyers keep secrets and speak only when it serves a strategy: They are close-mouthed.&quot;  In other words, it is &lt;em&gt;virtuous&lt;/em&gt; to keep secrets.  Practice this virtue (as Aristotle suggested) early on.  If you can&#039;t tell the difference between critically analyzing legal statements a professor made, and things a professor said that he intended to be kept quiet, then you need to spend some time with Aristotle.

I&#039;m wondering...do you not keep secrets?  If I share something personal to you, as you going to put it on your blog?

Do you have friends?  If so, are you one of the three ways people learn things: telephone; telefax; tell-a-David?</description>
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<p><em>And, please don&#8217;t assume that every law professor is so shallow or thin-skinned that she or he can&#8217;t take constructive, diplomatic criticism.</em></p>
<p>Aha.  Perhaps a re-reading my post would be helpful.  There I wrote: &#8220;<em>Unless you&#8217;re critically analyzing something a professor has said in public</em>, nothing is probably the best thing to blog about.&#8221;  You should also note that the reasons I gave for being quiet were in furtherance of a virtue.  I wrote: &#8220;The best lawyers keep secrets and speak only when it serves a strategy: They are close-mouthed.&#8221;  In other words, it is <em>virtuous</em> to keep secrets.  Practice this virtue (as Aristotle suggested) early on.  If you can&#8217;t tell the difference between critically analyzing legal statements a professor made, and things a professor said that he intended to be kept quiet, then you need to spend some time with Aristotle.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m wondering&#8230;do you not keep secrets?  If I share something personal to you, as you going to put it on your blog?</p>
<p>Do you have friends?  If so, are you one of the three ways people learn things: telephone; telefax; tell-a-David?</p>
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		<title>By: David Giacalone</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2004/12/27/the-heedless-snowman/comment-page-1/#comment-5674</link>
		<dc:creator>David Giacalone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/formerlyknownas/2004/12/27/the-heedless-snowman/#comment-5674</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Sorry, Mike, but your version of Blogger Ethics is neither persuasive nor edifying -- and adds nothing insightful to the discussion (how much spiked egg nog did you imbibe while doing your deep thinking on this topic?).&#160; Any system of ethics that is only explained or based upon the actor&#039;s &quot;self-interest&quot; is far too narrow -- especially when &quot;self-interest&quot; is defined basically to mean financial interests (as opposed to integrity, self-respect, or similar characteristics).&#160; 
All my life (starting in high school,&#160;long before I got either old or particularly grumpy), I have prefered to stick my neck out and point out the emperor&#039;s lack of clothing, to remaining mute in order to protect my behind.&#160;It has, in&#160;truth, caused me major aggravation and trepidation, but never the aggravation of losing my self-respect. &#160;I&#039;ve also preferred to promote integrity over income.&#160; To me, true ethics (and professionalism) will often require self-sacrifice.&#160; 
Please don&#039;t denigrate the term &quot;Ethics&quot; by giving it a shallow, narrow meaning.&#160; And, please don&#039;t assume that every law professor is so shallow or thin-skinned that she or he can&#039;t take constructive, diplomatic criticism.&#160; [I got some of my very best references and job opportunities over the year&#039;s from the people I have criticized and grilled the most.]</description>
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<p>Sorry, Mike, but your version of Blogger Ethics is neither persuasive nor edifying &#8212; and adds nothing insightful to the discussion (how much spiked egg nog did you imbibe while doing your deep thinking on this topic?).&nbsp; Any system of ethics that is only explained or based upon the actor&#8217;s &#8220;self-interest&#8221; is far too narrow &#8212; especially when &#8220;self-interest&#8221; is defined basically to mean financial interests (as opposed to integrity, self-respect, or similar characteristics).&nbsp;<br />
All my life (starting in high school,&nbsp;long before I got either old or particularly grumpy), I have prefered to stick my neck out and point out the emperor&#8217;s lack of clothing, to remaining mute in order to protect my behind.&nbsp;It has, in&nbsp;truth, caused me major aggravation and trepidation, but never the aggravation of losing my self-respect. &nbsp;I&#8217;ve also preferred to promote integrity over income.&nbsp; To me, true ethics (and professionalism) will often require self-sacrifice.&nbsp;<br />
Please don&#8217;t denigrate the term &#8220;Ethics&#8221; by giving it a shallow, narrow meaning.&nbsp; And, please don&#8217;t assume that every law professor is so shallow or thin-skinned that she or he can&#8217;t take constructive, diplomatic criticism.&nbsp; [I got some of my very best references and job opportunities over the year's from the people I have criticized and grilled the most.]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2004/12/27/the-heedless-snowman/comment-page-1/#comment-5673</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/formerlyknownas/2004/12/27/the-heedless-snowman/#comment-5673</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

David, I could pontificate, or I could present compelling reasons for non-diclosure.  The latter shows people their &quot;enlightened&quot; self-interest (re: show why doing the right thing is in that person&#039;s best interest.)  Since I&#039;m in the persuasion business, I chose track 2.

When I&#039;m old and grouchy, I&#039;ll tell people they should do the right thing for its own sake.  Then I&#039;ll bang my head against the wall when nobody listens.</description>
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<p>David, I could pontificate, or I could present compelling reasons for non-diclosure.  The latter shows people their &#8220;enlightened&#8221; self-interest (re: show why doing the right thing is in that person&#8217;s best interest.)  Since I&#8217;m in the persuasion business, I chose track 2.</p>
<p>When I&#8217;m old and grouchy, I&#8217;ll tell people they should do the right thing for its own sake.  Then I&#8217;ll bang my head against the wall when nobody listens.</p>
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