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	<title>Comments on: irked again by criminal defense lawyers (with updates)</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/</link>
	<description>breathless punditry and one-breath poetry with David Giacalone</description>
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		<title>By: David Giacalone</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-193415</link>
		<dc:creator>David Giacalone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/?p=9891#comment-193415</guid>
		<description>Ricky,  I&#039;ve parsed your many double negatives and think I know what you&#039;re trying to say.  I wish you had explained your &quot;do not prohibit their silly statements&quot; position from a professional responsibility perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ricky,  I&#8217;ve parsed your many double negatives and think I know what you&#8217;re trying to say.  I wish you had explained your &#8220;do not prohibit their silly statements&#8221; position from a professional responsibility perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Ricky</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-193341</link>
		<dc:creator>Ricky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 06:06:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/?p=9891#comment-193341</guid>
		<description>Gid, we aren’t in disagreement. I wouldn’t have made statements that don’t pass the blush test, and I don’t advocate for making statements per se, or making dubious at all. Rather, I advocate against prohibiting them from making such statements, silly and disreputable though they may seem to all of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gid, we aren’t in disagreement. I wouldn’t have made statements that don’t pass the blush test, and I don’t advocate for making statements per se, or making dubious at all. Rather, I advocate against prohibiting them from making such statements, silly and disreputable though they may seem to all of us.</p>
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		<title>By: David Giacalone</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-192220</link>
		<dc:creator>David Giacalone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 12:00:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/?p=9891#comment-192220</guid>
		<description>Scott, You&#039;re punting here.  We are a self-regulating profession and can&#039;t afford to let the most responsible members look the other way (or, worse, simply declare their own purity) when the lowest-common-denominator is acting unprofessionally -- especially, when they do it in the public spotlight and on issues important to the functioning of our legal system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, You&#8217;re punting here.  We are a self-regulating profession and can&#8217;t afford to let the most responsible members look the other way (or, worse, simply declare their own purity) when the lowest-common-denominator is acting unprofessionally &#8212; especially, when they do it in the public spotlight and on issues important to the functioning of our legal system.</p>
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		<title>By: shg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-192204</link>
		<dc:creator>shg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 10:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/?p=9891#comment-192204</guid>
		<description>Gid, we aren&#039;t in disagreement. I wouldn&#039;t have made statements that don&#039;t pass the blush test, and I don&#039;t advocate for making statements per se, or making dubious at all.  Rather, I advocate against prohibiting them from making such statements, silly and disreputable though they may seem to all of us.

As for repping cops, it is a different world from anyone else.  But that&#039;s something you have to experience.  Kinda like the mob, but much more controlling and they pay better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gid, we aren&#8217;t in disagreement. I wouldn&#8217;t have made statements that don&#8217;t pass the blush test, and I don&#8217;t advocate for making statements per se, or making dubious at all.  Rather, I advocate against prohibiting them from making such statements, silly and disreputable though they may seem to all of us.</p>
<p>As for repping cops, it is a different world from anyone else.  But that&#8217;s something you have to experience.  Kinda like the mob, but much more controlling and they pay better.</p>
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		<title>By: David Giacalone</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-192115</link>
		<dc:creator>David Giacalone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 00:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/?p=9891#comment-192115</guid>
		<description>Gideon, It goes without saying that this is one of the most thoughtful Comments in the five-year history of my weblog.  Many thanks for taking the time and sticking out your neck.  

I wonder if we&#039;ll live long enough for the general public to stop equating &quot;lawyer&quot; with &quot;liar.&quot;  A few less red herring might help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gideon, It goes without saying that this is one of the most thoughtful Comments in the five-year history of my weblog.  Many thanks for taking the time and sticking out your neck.  </p>
<p>I wonder if we&#8217;ll live long enough for the general public to stop equating &#8220;lawyer&#8221; with &#8220;liar.&#8221;  A few less red herring might help.</p>
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		<title>By: Gideon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-192114</link>
		<dc:creator>Gideon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 00:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/?p=9891#comment-192114</guid>
		<description>At grave risk to my health and my blog&#039;s well-being, I will timidly disagree with Scott.

Now, I have not yet represented a police officer, so I don&#039;t know if it is indeed true that the police corps demand that every accusation be loudly and vehemently denied. That may very well be the case.

As to other clients, however, I think I would be unable to make statements that don&#039;t pass the blush test. There&#039;s a difference between proclaiming your client&#039;s innocence and positing unbelievable explanations.

Scott says: &quot;there is no alternative to perform their function if they are ethically prevented in the content of their speech.&quot;

But I don&#039;t think that&#039;s what is happening here. The lawyers could very well have said nothing (or something more restrained like the third lawyer quoted above). After all, no one was ever found guilty because a lawyer said &quot;no comment&quot; on the courthouse footsteps.

I do think we are doing our profession a disservice by spouting nonsense such as this. The question of whether we should care about it at all is an interesting one and I argue we should. After all, the people watching you on the TV tonight are tomorrow&#039;s jurors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At grave risk to my health and my blog&#8217;s well-being, I will timidly disagree with Scott.</p>
<p>Now, I have not yet represented a police officer, so I don&#8217;t know if it is indeed true that the police corps demand that every accusation be loudly and vehemently denied. That may very well be the case.</p>
<p>As to other clients, however, I think I would be unable to make statements that don&#8217;t pass the blush test. There&#8217;s a difference between proclaiming your client&#8217;s innocence and positing unbelievable explanations.</p>
<p>Scott says: &#8220;there is no alternative to perform their function if they are ethically prevented in the content of their speech.&#8221;</p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s what is happening here. The lawyers could very well have said nothing (or something more restrained like the third lawyer quoted above). After all, no one was ever found guilty because a lawyer said &#8220;no comment&#8221; on the courthouse footsteps.</p>
<p>I do think we are doing our profession a disservice by spouting nonsense such as this. The question of whether we should care about it at all is an interesting one and I argue we should. After all, the people watching you on the TV tonight are tomorrow&#8217;s jurors.</p>
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		<title>By: David Giacalone</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-192071</link>
		<dc:creator>David Giacalone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 19:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/?p=9891#comment-192071</guid>
		<description>Thanks again, Scott, for clarifying further.  I&#039;m still reluctant to conclude that a criminal defense lawyer stays within ethical restrictions on trial publicity [in New York, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nysba.org/Content/NavigationMenu/ForAttorneys/ProfessionalStandardsforAttorneys/LawyersCodeDec2807.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;DR  7-107&lt;/a&gt; (at 64); &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.abanet.org/cpr/mrpc/rule_3_6.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Model Rule 3.6&lt;/a&gt;] so long as he or she is merely echoing the client&#039;s assertions of innocence and &quot;explaining away accusations.&quot; When those explanations can&#039;t even pass the blush test and suggest improper motives on the part of the prosecution, we need to ask whether the lawyers have gone too far.

Being paid to be a mouthpiece cannot simply mean a freehand to say whatever your client puts in your mouth -- or whatever you can dream up to make the prosecution look bad, without regard to the facts, or based on intentional ignorance of the facts.

The lawyer&#039;s duties to a client shouldn&#039;t totally overshadow duties to the administration of justice and to the public&#039;s interest in the justice system and effective and fair law enforcement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks again, Scott, for clarifying further.  I&#8217;m still reluctant to conclude that a criminal defense lawyer stays within ethical restrictions on trial publicity [in New York, <a href="http://www.nysba.org/Content/NavigationMenu/ForAttorneys/ProfessionalStandardsforAttorneys/LawyersCodeDec2807.pdf" rel="nofollow">DR  7-107</a> (at 64); <a href="http://www.abanet.org/cpr/mrpc/rule_3_6.html" rel="nofollow">Model Rule 3.6</a>] so long as he or she is merely echoing the client&#8217;s assertions of innocence and &#8220;explaining away accusations.&#8221; When those explanations can&#8217;t even pass the blush test and suggest improper motives on the part of the prosecution, we need to ask whether the lawyers have gone too far.</p>
<p>Being paid to be a mouthpiece cannot simply mean a freehand to say whatever your client puts in your mouth &#8212; or whatever you can dream up to make the prosecution look bad, without regard to the facts, or based on intentional ignorance of the facts.</p>
<p>The lawyer&#8217;s duties to a client shouldn&#8217;t totally overshadow duties to the administration of justice and to the public&#8217;s interest in the justice system and effective and fair law enforcement.</p>
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		<title>By: shg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-191915</link>
		<dc:creator>shg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/?p=9891#comment-191915</guid>
		<description>On your update, kudos for clarifying the distinction for the reporter.  It makes a critical difference in the story, and the message it sends.  He should have realized it in the first place, and this shows how dubious the information we receive from the media.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On your update, kudos for clarifying the distinction for the reporter.  It makes a critical difference in the story, and the message it sends.  He should have realized it in the first place, and this shows how dubious the information we receive from the media.</p>
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		<title>By: shg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-191914</link>
		<dc:creator>shg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/?p=9891#comment-191914</guid>
		<description>That could make it very hard for us to defend.  Whose truth is true?  If, in this case, the defendant cops assert they never touched the guy, are his attorneys wrong to believe their clients and ridicule the hypertechnical charge against good, honest cops who have already been the target of a false accusation.

While good taste and discretion might prevent most defense lawyers from touting vapid explanations, mostly because it will likely harm the client when shown to be empty, there is no alternative to perform their function if they are ethically prevented in the content of their speech.  

There must be a free hand in proclaiming innocence and explaining away accusations, or the attorney&#039;s silence will be a condemnation.  That won&#039;t work either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That could make it very hard for us to defend.  Whose truth is true?  If, in this case, the defendant cops assert they never touched the guy, are his attorneys wrong to believe their clients and ridicule the hypertechnical charge against good, honest cops who have already been the target of a false accusation.</p>
<p>While good taste and discretion might prevent most defense lawyers from touting vapid explanations, mostly because it will likely harm the client when shown to be empty, there is no alternative to perform their function if they are ethically prevented in the content of their speech.  </p>
<p>There must be a free hand in proclaiming innocence and explaining away accusations, or the attorney&#8217;s silence will be a condemnation.  That won&#8217;t work either.</p>
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		<title>By: David Giacalone</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-191736</link>
		<dc:creator>David Giacalone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/?p=9891#comment-191736</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your perspective Scott (who, for the information of other readers, is a thoughtful criminal defense lawyer in NYC). You make good sense.

But, your lawyerly &quot;within the bounds of the law&quot; is not particularly helpful.  Beyond asserting that your client is not guilty, I believe intentionally misleading the public should be considered unethical for officers of the court. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your perspective Scott (who, for the information of other readers, is a thoughtful criminal defense lawyer in NYC). You make good sense.</p>
<p>But, your lawyerly &#8220;within the bounds of the law&#8221; is not particularly helpful.  Beyond asserting that your client is not guilty, I believe intentionally misleading the public should be considered unethical for officers of the court.</p>
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		<title>By: shg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/2008/09/06/irked-again-by-criminal-defense-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-191733</link>
		<dc:creator>shg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethicalesq/?p=9891#comment-191733</guid>
		<description>There are two variables here that could account for the &quot;Red Herring Credo&quot; and offending comments: The defendants are cops and the case is in Schenectady.  The former involves a dynamic that is different from all other defendants, and the defendant cops, and more importantly the police union/brotherhood, demands that their lawyers loudly and publicly espouse their innocence and ridicule the prosecution.

As to the latter, these relatively flimsy arguments would be subject to scrutiny and criticism in a larger city with more media and strong civil rights involvement.  If the media statements in Schenectady aren&#039;t scrutinized by the media or any adversarial group, they will go unchallenged and frame the controversy.

But the one thing to remember is that the defense has no duty of fairness to the public.  It&#039;s only duty is to its clients within the bounds of the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are two variables here that could account for the &#8220;Red Herring Credo&#8221; and offending comments: The defendants are cops and the case is in Schenectady.  The former involves a dynamic that is different from all other defendants, and the defendant cops, and more importantly the police union/brotherhood, demands that their lawyers loudly and publicly espouse their innocence and ridicule the prosecution.</p>
<p>As to the latter, these relatively flimsy arguments would be subject to scrutiny and criticism in a larger city with more media and strong civil rights involvement.  If the media statements in Schenectady aren&#8217;t scrutinized by the media or any adversarial group, they will go unchallenged and frame the controversy.</p>
<p>But the one thing to remember is that the defense has no duty of fairness to the public.  It&#8217;s only duty is to its clients within the bounds of the law.</p>
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