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	<title>Comments on: Passion, like every other site on the web</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/natep/2004/02/26/passion-like-every-other-site-on-the-web/</link>
	<description>\"The most courageous act is still to think for yourself. Aloud.\" -Coco Chanel</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 06:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/natep/2004/02/26/passion-like-every-other-site-on-the-web/#comment-1503</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2004 17:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/nateptest/2004/02/26/passion-like-every-other-site-on-th#comment-1503</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Sorry, but I have to disagree with some of the previous comments.We
DO live in a world of such gratutitous violence and cruelty, and it's
simply that we've become inured to its present forms. The scourging may
seem super-violent to us now, but it's because we're not used to it.
But we are used to thousands of gun deaths a year, we are used to
state-sponsored forms of violence, we are used to Palestinians and
Israelis killing each other with near indiscrimination, and we are used
to the violence of "action" films where people die left and right and
buildings and lives are blown apart. And do the purveyors of these
forms of violence enjoy it as much as the Roman grunts portrayed in the
film. I'll bet they do. The consumers seem to.I do not believe
that Jesus had to suffer more than any other human to accomplish our
redemption. I reject a theology of an angry God needing more blood than
has ever been required. You are free to disagree, and that's fine. But
such a theology is not required by the Gospels or the rest of the
Christian New Testament. I believe (and I can play Scripture
proof-texting with the best on this -- if there's anything that my
born-again heritage taught me, it's how to do a "sword drill") that our
redemption was accomplished primarily through Christ's Very
Incarnation, not primarily because of his suffering in the
Passion.&#160; 

The God who needed satiating on the cross was the god that we as human
beings had turned ourselves into.&#160; What the Passion did was for
God to tell us that God loved us so much that not only would Jesus die
for us, but he'd submit himself to our will so completely that he'd
allow us to brutalize him and try to vanquish God forever.&#160; It
wasn't that Jesus had to become God's sacrifice -- it's that we'd only
understand the hyperbolic love of God after we killed God and he still
continued to show love to us.&#160; Even after we satisfied our own
blood lust (not God's, I think), God still vanquished death for
us.&#160; I think you need it all -- the Incarnation, the Passion, the
Resurrection -- and focusing on any one aspect exclusively removes the
salvation of the story.The German nun. Sorry, I don't think
that her visions (and I think it's arguable that she received these
from Christ Himself, as at least it completely undermines the belief in
the Canon of Scripture) should receive the priority of the Gospel
accounts. It's deceptive to claim that you are making a "true" account
of the last hours of Christ, and then to add extra materials like Mary
Catherine Emmerich as if they were on the same level as the Gospel
accounts.Pornography does not have to imply something sexual, I
think. In this case, the focus on the violence seems to indicate that
the filmmaker has such a level of excitement and stimulation upon
seeing and creating the violence that it excites to an orgasmic level.
It's like leather-culture sexual imagery, in that the excitement seems
to come from the portrayal of violent actions, not of sex, strictly
speaking. Lust isn't just a sin of sex organs. Lust can manifest in a
visual of violence.Finally, the point that the film is about
the Resurrection is debatable. In visual imagery, that which you wish
to emphasize is given more space (time) and intensity. The Resurrection
receives so little time and emphasis in the film that it's debatable
whether it's the point. It does come at the end, so it's what we may be
left with, but the imagery is so understated that it's hard to imagine
it's what you'll remember very well in the end.
Wow.&#160; I'm not sure I meant to be so orthodox here.&#160; And
I'm not sure how much of this I wanted to hang out here in my
blog.&#160; Part of it is that the original argument contained
contradictions that needed pointing out, and I guess part of it is that
my own beliefs fell into the post.

Glad this is down in the comments section.... *grin*
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a></a></p>
<p>Sorry, but I have to disagree with some of the previous comments.We<br />
DO live in a world of such gratutitous violence and cruelty, and it&#8217;s<br />
simply that we&#8217;ve become inured to its present forms. The scourging may<br />
seem super-violent to us now, but it&#8217;s because we&#8217;re not used to it.<br />
But we are used to thousands of gun deaths a year, we are used to<br />
state-sponsored forms of violence, we are used to Palestinians and<br />
Israelis killing each other with near indiscrimination, and we are used<br />
to the violence of &#8220;action&#8221; films where people die left and right and<br />
buildings and lives are blown apart. And do the purveyors of these<br />
forms of violence enjoy it as much as the Roman grunts portrayed in the<br />
film. I&#8217;ll bet they do. The consumers seem to.I do not believe<br />
that Jesus had to suffer more than any other human to accomplish our<br />
redemption. I reject a theology of an angry God needing more blood than<br />
has ever been required. You are free to disagree, and that&#8217;s fine. But<br />
such a theology is not required by the Gospels or the rest of the<br />
Christian New Testament. I believe (and I can play Scripture<br />
proof-texting with the best on this &#8212; if there&#8217;s anything that my<br />
born-again heritage taught me, it&#8217;s how to do a &#8220;sword drill&#8221;) that our<br />
redemption was accomplished primarily through Christ&#8217;s Very<br />
Incarnation, not primarily because of his suffering in the<br />
Passion.&nbsp; </p>
<p>The God who needed satiating on the cross was the god that we as human<br />
beings had turned ourselves into.&nbsp; What the Passion did was for<br />
God to tell us that God loved us so much that not only would Jesus die<br />
for us, but he&#8217;d submit himself to our will so completely that he&#8217;d<br />
allow us to brutalize him and try to vanquish God forever.&nbsp; It<br />
wasn&#8217;t that Jesus had to become God&#8217;s sacrifice &#8212; it&#8217;s that we&#8217;d only<br />
understand the hyperbolic love of God after we killed God and he still<br />
continued to show love to us.&nbsp; Even after we satisfied our own<br />
blood lust (not God&#8217;s, I think), God still vanquished death for<br />
us.&nbsp; I think you need it all &#8212; the Incarnation, the Passion, the<br />
Resurrection &#8212; and focusing on any one aspect exclusively removes the<br />
salvation of the story.The German nun. Sorry, I don&#8217;t think<br />
that her visions (and I think it&#8217;s arguable that she received these<br />
from Christ Himself, as at least it completely undermines the belief in<br />
the Canon of Scripture) should receive the priority of the Gospel<br />
accounts. It&#8217;s deceptive to claim that you are making a &#8220;true&#8221; account<br />
of the last hours of Christ, and then to add extra materials like Mary<br />
Catherine Emmerich as if they were on the same level as the Gospel<br />
accounts.Pornography does not have to imply something sexual, I<br />
think. In this case, the focus on the violence seems to indicate that<br />
the filmmaker has such a level of excitement and stimulation upon<br />
seeing and creating the violence that it excites to an orgasmic level.<br />
It&#8217;s like leather-culture sexual imagery, in that the excitement seems<br />
to come from the portrayal of violent actions, not of sex, strictly<br />
speaking. Lust isn&#8217;t just a sin of sex organs. Lust can manifest in a<br />
visual of violence.Finally, the point that the film is about<br />
the Resurrection is debatable. In visual imagery, that which you wish<br />
to emphasize is given more space (time) and intensity. The Resurrection<br />
receives so little time and emphasis in the film that it&#8217;s debatable<br />
whether it&#8217;s the point. It does come at the end, so it&#8217;s what we may be<br />
left with, but the imagery is so understated that it&#8217;s hard to imagine<br />
it&#8217;s what you&#8217;ll remember very well in the end.<br />
Wow.&nbsp; I&#8217;m not sure I meant to be so orthodox here.&nbsp; And<br />
I&#8217;m not sure how much of this I wanted to hang out here in my<br />
blog.&nbsp; Part of it is that the original argument contained<br />
contradictions that needed pointing out, and I guess part of it is that<br />
my own beliefs fell into the post.</p>
<p>Glad this is down in the comments section&#8230;. *grin*</p>
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		<title>By: bobf</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/natep/2004/02/26/passion-like-every-other-site-on-the-web/#comment-1495</link>
		<dc:creator>bobf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/nateptest/2004/02/26/passion-like-every-other-site-on-th#comment-1495</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

I don't agree with Sullivan's account of The Passion.  Pornography implies something sexual.  This most certainly was not.  I do agree that it's extremely graphic and that some people's sensibilites are going to be assaulted when they see this.  But there is a point to all of this, to all things in the film which we may wonder about.

To specifically mention here the scourging is important.  We live in a relatively civilized and polite society, where, unlike many people in third world nations, we're insulated against this sort of sadism and cruelty.  I for one think this is a quite accurate portrayal of the Roman attitudes of the day.  Picture yourself as a poor dumb grunt, a Roman footsoldier, sent of to the ass-end of the world, someplace called Judea.  You probably don't want to be there, as do neither your peers nor the centurions.  What are you to make of these "natives," with their curious customs and religious rituals.  I suppose that a real hatred and prejudice could easily simmer under all that armor.  I would be surprised if the two footsoldiers who flailed at Christ didn't thoroughly enjoy it, venting their hatred and frustration in such a way.  Gratuitous violence?  Perhaps.  Likely?  Highly.

Why does Gibson show us this?, asks our critic.  Isn't it bad enough that, theologically, Jesus suffered more than any human?  No, it's not.  We forget, probably have no comprehension of the suffering Jesus took upon Himself to save us, all the while Satan is hissing from the crowd-- "One man cannot do this  . . ."  Sometimes we need to get past the intellect of theology and see what the results of a thorough scourging look like.  

This film has given me much to think about and ponder; I was fortunate to have seen it on Ash Wednesday (I went to church in the morning).  There are many scenes in the film I'm still pondering, trying to search for meaning.  One is the aftermath of the scourging where the Marys are mopping up the blood with the white cloths given to them by Pilate's wife.  Another is the pecking out of the one robber's eye.  Another was the blotting of Christ's face with a white cloth by whom a Roman Catholic friend tells me is St. Veronica (it's one of the Stations of the Cross).  Yet another is the scene where Satan appears to be holding an infant and it turns out to be some sort of midget demon.  I am not a Roman Catholic, nor a student of relgious customs, so my search for information may be long and arduous.  My Benedictine friend also mentioned that Gibson read some of the works of Christian visionaries, one I saw mentioned was a German nun who was given a vision of the entire episode by Christ Himself.

I did not see this film to be mindless cruelty.  It was a stark reality check and reminder of the Sacrifice of Christ.  If I had wanted to see a biography of Jesus' life and teachings, they've already been done.  No, this isn't King of Kings.  And it doesn't pretend to be so.  I beg to differ that, ". . . all that context, all that meaning, has been removed for endless sickening gratuitous violence," to quote Sullivan's blurb.  He obviously left before the end credits.  The point was in the sound of the stone rolling from the tomb, the light entering that chamber of death, the Risen Christ seated at the foot of his burial platform.  That's what it's about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a></a></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t agree with Sullivan&#8217;s account of The Passion.  Pornography implies something sexual.  This most certainly was not.  I do agree that it&#8217;s extremely graphic and that some people&#8217;s sensibilites are going to be assaulted when they see this.  But there is a point to all of this, to all things in the film which we may wonder about.</p>
<p>To specifically mention here the scourging is important.  We live in a relatively civilized and polite society, where, unlike many people in third world nations, we&#8217;re insulated against this sort of sadism and cruelty.  I for one think this is a quite accurate portrayal of the Roman attitudes of the day.  Picture yourself as a poor dumb grunt, a Roman footsoldier, sent of to the ass-end of the world, someplace called Judea.  You probably don&#8217;t want to be there, as do neither your peers nor the centurions.  What are you to make of these &#8220;natives,&#8221; with their curious customs and religious rituals.  I suppose that a real hatred and prejudice could easily simmer under all that armor.  I would be surprised if the two footsoldiers who flailed at Christ didn&#8217;t thoroughly enjoy it, venting their hatred and frustration in such a way.  Gratuitous violence?  Perhaps.  Likely?  Highly.</p>
<p>Why does Gibson show us this?, asks our critic.  Isn&#8217;t it bad enough that, theologically, Jesus suffered more than any human?  No, it&#8217;s not.  We forget, probably have no comprehension of the suffering Jesus took upon Himself to save us, all the while Satan is hissing from the crowd&#8211; &#8220;One man cannot do this  . . .&#8221;  Sometimes we need to get past the intellect of theology and see what the results of a thorough scourging look like.  </p>
<p>This film has given me much to think about and ponder; I was fortunate to have seen it on Ash Wednesday (I went to church in the morning).  There are many scenes in the film I&#8217;m still pondering, trying to search for meaning.  One is the aftermath of the scourging where the Marys are mopping up the blood with the white cloths given to them by Pilate&#8217;s wife.  Another is the pecking out of the one robber&#8217;s eye.  Another was the blotting of Christ&#8217;s face with a white cloth by whom a Roman Catholic friend tells me is St. Veronica (it&#8217;s one of the Stations of the Cross).  Yet another is the scene where Satan appears to be holding an infant and it turns out to be some sort of midget demon.  I am not a Roman Catholic, nor a student of relgious customs, so my search for information may be long and arduous.  My Benedictine friend also mentioned that Gibson read some of the works of Christian visionaries, one I saw mentioned was a German nun who was given a vision of the entire episode by Christ Himself.</p>
<p>I did not see this film to be mindless cruelty.  It was a stark reality check and reminder of the Sacrifice of Christ.  If I had wanted to see a biography of Jesus&#8217; life and teachings, they&#8217;ve already been done.  No, this isn&#8217;t King of Kings.  And it doesn&#8217;t pretend to be so.  I beg to differ that, &#8220;. . . all that context, all that meaning, has been removed for endless sickening gratuitous violence,&#8221; to quote Sullivan&#8217;s blurb.  He obviously left before the end credits.  The point was in the sound of the stone rolling from the tomb, the light entering that chamber of death, the Risen Christ seated at the foot of his burial platform.  That&#8217;s what it&#8217;s about.</p>
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