An engineer’s opinion about education. Great.

First, the thing about group learing. Where did you get that from? Different people learn best in different ways. There are some who learn best in groups and some who learn best by themselves. For me, group work was always a nuisance, other people got in the way and I had to explain the obvious five times. It took a lot more time to try to be polite and not tell them they are idiots then to actually do anything.

And about summer vacation, you seem to miss the point here. The problem is not that education gives too much of it, but that corporates give too little. A 9-5 working human (or 9-9!) is a slave, and worthless as a human being in most other aspects. A working human has never done anything important. The great things, in litterature, film, arts, and even science – where done by people with a lot of free time to think and find their ways. Maybe I’m a bit harsh here, but maybe you should think more about this. Corporate work is death to the spirit, and there is little to do to work around this. People that try to avoid this usually manage to find jobs that leave them a lot of free time, but those jobs are really the exception in the current american culture.

The conclusion is that humans should strive to have as much free time for themselves as possible, and work only to satisfy their living necessities. Now going back to the vacation/dormitory issue, school is a time when people not only learn, but when they discover themselves and what they want to do in life. For some, it might be ok to just get a 9-5 job and be happy with it. Others may sense that they have other aspirations. They need time to understand this, time to explore the possibilities. Turning college into a worker factory may be good for the corporations in the short term, but catastrophic for the society in general in the long term. The society just wouldn’t go anywhere, wouldn’t create anything. It would not have any of the spirit required for moving forward. It would only consist of drones doing their daily tasks, over and over and over again. And then buying a new SUV to go to work with.

It appears to me that the root problem to the question that 6you have posed has absolutely nothing to do with Dorms or the Education System and has everything to do with the People involved (i.e. the Parents and Students).

#1 It is my firm belief that the Parents ARE NOT Responsible for 100% of their child education. 50% is much more appropriate. The child needs to have personal monetary responsibility for their future, be it part-time job… scholarships… savings… etc. If you are paying 100% for your child to go to school, you are a Sucker! I know that I personally almost every break (Including the infamous Spring Break) working to make money to pay for MY education. Appearently I felt some ownership of MY education and future. Christmas Break (2 weeks) was the only “break” that I took every year.

#2 A student who will participate in “drinking and sexual activities”, will participate no matter if that gathering is at a dorm, apartment, city park, local woods, etc. Therefore dorms actually provide some level of monitoring that other “private” locations may not, as most dorms have Monitors, Resident-Assitants, regular security rounds, etc. Sneaky students (again the person is the problem not the institution)will be sneaky no matter where they are.

#3 Group learning is fine for some activities some of the time. In most of my “group” activities at college we “carried” at least one “slacker” who consistantly road the shirt tails of everyone else. At some point you need to be able to do the work on your own!

It is time for people to take responsibility for the under lying issues before pushing the problems on to someone else. Quit giving you child a free ride! Make them take responsibility for their own lives for better or worse!

I think that some students learn better when studying alone. I’ve never enjoyed doing schoolwork in groups, and I avoided it whenever possible. In my experience, working in groups tends to be inefficient, and probably benefits the less-well-prepared students more than the bright ones.

Quotes from the above posts. Made me recall just where our current “education” really came from and why the future of America is in such dire straits. A few hints at the bottom. Do much research on them.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

The mix of work and study gives students breadth, a sense of the world of work– (where’s the academics?)
=========================

would also have to have more liberal cheating and group-work policies– (m-m-m-m, uh-huh)
========================

I worked as well as learned, but in the Northeastern case, the emphasis was on that post-grad job.– (academics, anyone?)
========================

big name school– (are den’s of what?)
=========================

even with a college education, can poor kids ever hope to get a really good job? Aren’t all of those reserved for Muffy and Biff by their “ruling class” parents?– (go to the head of the class)
======================

Working in groups is definitely better.– (and it takes a community to raise a child — NOT ‘bot)
=============================

I do believe that in 10-20 years post-secondary education as we have known it will be barely recognizable, or at least far more diverse.– (Diverse; now there’a huge clue!)
============================

What I think you’re obliquely poking at with your mention of cubicle farms is that higher education (indeed, all of what passes for “education” in this country) is nothing more than boot camp for drones in the ranks of corporate feudalism.– (so-o-o-o close, ouch)
=======================

research the following;

*Womb to Tomb*

*Cradle to Grave*

The next one has had a hundred name changes to keep it cloaked from public scrutiny. Some may have heard of it. If so, and they think it’s Americas salvation they haven’t dug deep enough. They’re/your not wanted to. No matter what you call this “rose” the truth is, it’s still socialism. It’s name is

*Outcome-Based Education* OBE.

Contrived by the liberal socialists agenda.

Here’s the desending ladder of your freedom, your liberty, your rights. To be replaced with a few feel-good “privilages”.
============================
“Democracy is indispensable to socialism” —- V.I. Lenin

“Democracy is the road to socialism”—- Karl Marx

“The goal of socialism is communism”—- V.I. Lenin
========================
America was founded as a Republic. Imagine that. ………and to the *Republic* for which it stands, one nation under God

Battle Hymn of the *Republic*

If none of this makes sence, then, be it known that OBE has worked so well and so covertly that it was undetected by the “educated”. If you find your uninterested in researching these things then OBE has sucessfully manufactured your attitude. Academics be damned. You think as you have been programed. ………….and now to suit, I’ll break the computer, your magnetic tape………

Quotes from the above posts. Made me recall just where our current “education” really came from and why the future of America is in such dire straits. A few hints at the bottom. Do much research on them.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

The mix of work and study gives students breadth, a sense of the world of work– (where’s the academics?)
=========================

would also have to have more liberal cheating and group-work policies– (m-m-m-m, uh-huh)
========================

I worked as well as learned, but in the Northeastern case, the emphasis was on that post-grad job.– (academics,
anyone?)
========================

big name school– (are den’s of what?)
=========================

even with a college education, can poor kids ever hope to get a really good job? Aren’t all of those reserved for Muffy and Biff by their “ruling class” parents?– (go to the head of the class)
======================

Working in groups is definitely better.– (and it takes a community to raise a child — NOT ‘bot)
=============================

I do believe that in 10-20 years post-secondary education as we have known it will be barely recognizable, or at least far more diverse.– (Diverse; now there’a huge clue!)
============================

What I think you’re obliquely poking at with your mention of cubicle farms is that higher education (indeed, all of what passes for “education” in this country) is nothing more than boot camp for drones in the ranks of corporate feudalism.– (so-o-o-o close, ouch)
=======================

research the following;

*Womb to Tomb*

*Cradle to Grave*

The next has had a hundred name changes to keep it cloaked from public scrutiny. Some may have heard of it. If so, and they think it’s Americas salvation they haven’t dug deep enough. They’re/your not wanted to. No matter what you call this “rose” the truth is, it’s still socialism. It’s name is

*Outcome-Based Education* OBE.

Contrived by the liberal socialists agenda.

Here’s the desending ladder of your freedom, your liberty, your rights. To be replaced with a few feel-good “privilages”.
============================
“Democracy is indispensable to socialism” —- V.I. Lenin

“Democracy is the road to socialism”—- Karl Marx

“The goal of socialism is communism”—- V.I. Lenin
========================
America was founded as a Republic. Imagine that. ………and to the *Republic* for which it stands.

Battle Hymn of the *Republic*

If none of this makes sence, then, be it known that OBE has worked so well and so covertly that it was undetected by the “educated”. If you find your uninterested in researching these things then OBE has sucessfully manufactured your attitude. And academics be damned.

What I think you’re obliquely poking at with your mention of cubicle farms is that higher education (indeed, all of what passes for “education” in this country) is nothing more than boot camp for drones in the ranks of corporate feudalism. The mesne lords insist on that funny piece of pseudo-parchment not because of what a potential drone has learned during his or her sentence at the university, but because it’s proof of qualification. What the paper means– especially when combined with excellent grades– is that the graduate has a proven ability to devote the requisite hours to grinding out arbitrary and capricious assignments of often dubious relevance as ordered by Authority Figures. That’s exactly what’s expected of corporate drones. So putting drones-in-training in cubicles for 12 hours a day, interrupted only by class meetings, is the ideal training for the drone-hood to which all students aspire.

With that out of the way, I have to defend dorms based on my own experiences some two decades ago (God that makes me feel old!). I lived on campus for three of my not-quite-four undergraduate years. I had the sort of community of friends and interests the likes of which, I now realize, does not exist in the Real World. In my last year I was forced off campus (for reasons too lengthy to relate here). I disliked the isolation that went with membership in the majority of commuter students at that institution. I disliked it so much that when I added up the numbers and found I could graduate a quarter early, I took the early out.

I subsequently became a True Commuter as a student at an urban law school that was strictly for commuters (i.e., no dorms or any housing anywhere near the campus). I lived with my parents, and commuted 56 kilometers each way (by bus and car). At the time I remember telling people that I felt like I was in high school, the only difference being that I had a lot more homework, I had a car, and the community band I belonged to didn’t march and rehearsed only once a week.

Based on these experiences, I would suggest to any college student that he or she make every effort to live on campus. Living “at home” may save money (and may thus be a necessary economy), but it is at the cost of forgoing social experiences and opportunities that may never be available again.

As for the summer shutdown, the college campuses aren’t idle at all. They make revenue renting out the dorms and other facilities to high-priced summer sessions, football camps, and various other groups that meet during the summer and have disposable money. The summer vacation period also provides sufficiently privileged students an opportunity to travel or just “be” that they may never experience again as typical American corporate drones.

Such schools already do exist. They are called trade schools and many university colleges are coming to resemble such– I suppose the next step is indeed to drop the summer break.

The problem with these programmes is that they are not the “intensive academic programs” advertised, but in reality “intensive trade/applied programs” that do not necessarily belong within a classical university setting.

The summer months don’t serve only the free-traveling riche. The summer break is an excellent time to pursue a research project, expand one’s body of historical and literary knowledge, or any number of other pursuits.

Formol

P.S. If the economy is so poor that there are not even any menial jobs to be had during those summer months, why should anyone be rushing to churn out more entry-level labourors in less time?

Wow, good questions and ideas! I never lived in dorms, and in a way was happier not to, but I tell kids you’re better off living at school and moving away from home for college. I feel I really missed out by commuting; less group study, less social experience, less sense of belonging at the school. I agree that an apartment or a private dorm-like space near school would have been at least as good as a dorm, and that dorms may be an anachronisim.

Working in groups is definitely better. I thrived on that when I was in my Cost Accounting and Strategic Management case study classes.

As for the time off, well… I worked. I paid for most of school myself, working sometimes in excess of 50 hours “part time” even during the school year, and more during the summers. I initially loved the suggestion of a full time schedule for college, over a shorter span. Then I realized that would be fine for a semi-traditional “parents pay everything and support the student” arrangement, in which the student need never work or earn any of his or her own money. But I daresay for most this would not be an option. For those who can spare some time in the summer, well, there’s summer classes with which to boost the speed with which you finish, and there are un- or minimall-paid internships or volunteer opportunities that give work experience and supplement what you gain from the college years.

I do believe that in 10-20 years post-secondary education as we have known it will be barely recognizable, or at least far more diverse. One more thing it’ll be interesting to watch.

If it makes sense to keep college students focused on studies 12 hours a day, 50 weeks a year in order to rush them into a paying job and relieve their poor downtrodden parents, why should we stop there?

Why not cancel all but two weeks of vacation per year and keep kids in class for longer days starting in the first grade? Parents could work longer hours themselves with no need to spend on daycare, and kids could be finished with school and bringing home a paycheck by the time they reach puberty!

Then again, even with a college education, can poor kids ever hope to get a really good job? Aren’t all of those reserved for Muffy and Biff by their “ruling class” parents? Wouldn’t the working class really be better off financially by just skipping school entirely and sending their kids to work in a sweatshop once they’re old enough to walk?

With respect to the above comment about doing internship for one (or two) quarter(s) a year, I think that the presents the problem of getting people to ’stick’.

In Dublin City University (um, Ireland) you do INTRA internship in your final years, which is fine because you’re committed to the course and you have applicable experience to give.

In year one and even some of year two, you’re just learning the ropes of procedural languages and computer architecture- unless you already have applicable skills from before Uni (many people do), you can’t hope to achieve that much, and that’s valuable term time that could be spent learning things to apply later in your academic career.

The other problem of course, and the one I faced, is that sometimes people learn that there are jobs out there that only need 10% of the CS or CE degree that they’re doing, and they will pay just fine, thank you very much.

The draw to leave Uni (where in Ireland you are pretty much always financially struggling, despite the ‘free’ third level education system) to an actual paying job is quite strong.

As I recall over the four your degree some alarmingly high percentage of people defect before graduating.