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	<title>Comments on: Send our underclass overseas?</title>
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	<description>A posting every day; an interesting idea every three months...</description>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-7079</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/#comment-7079</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Recently, my girlfriend and I went on a weeklong cruise.  The weather was good, but my fellow Americans were generally ugly.  Most of the ship&#x2019;s crew was from Indonesia. They were not paid a lot by first world standards even though they worked 14 hour days, seemed quite well educated, and spoke fluent English.  As the week progressed, I kept wondering how they could make better use of their skills within the confines of the world&#x2019;s current immigration and trade policies.  At the same time, I heard many passengers complain about how &#x201C;small&#x201D; and &#x201C;outdated&#x201D; their 55K ton, ten year-old cruise ship was.  Apparently, boats like this are being replaced with newer, larger models.  The old ones go to less productive uses.  The third thing that struck me was how damned cheap cruises are.  We paid $580 each for the week.  At this price, one could live on a cruise ship for about $30K/year, much less than the cost of a good nursing home!

So, why not buy a secondhand cruise ship and retrofit it for use as a floating nursing home?  Older Americans could cut their costs in half while enjoying far superior care.  Recently, NPR reported on the lives of lowly paid nursing home employees.  They don&#x2019;t like their jobs and often treat their patients with indifference at best.  On my Nursing Ship, patients would be treated by the best, most compassionate Indonesians available.  They would receive better pay than their cruise ship jobs provided and would get months of training in basic nursing tasks.  Just like cruise ships, some of the staff might still be American, but the jobs we in the US find undesirable would be filled by people happy to have them (or at least thrilled by the pay).

Logistics would be tricky.  To use foreign labor, the boat would have to spend most of its time in international waters.  However, few families would place mom on a Nursing Ship if they were only able to see her a few times a year.  To solve this problem, the ship will market itself to people in three costal cities: New York, Boston, and Baltimore/DC.  Every day, the ship will sail from one city&#x2019;s port to the next.  Family can board the ship to visit their loved ones.  Local doctors can visit their patients while still billing Medicare for their services.  So that families can remain comfortable while mom is at sea or in another port, webcams will be set up in each room, and families can view their relatives&#x2019; care as it happens.

Being outside the US would have a drastic impact on the cost of drugs.  They could be purchased in countries with the cheapest prices and delivered to the ship by a boat or helicopter.  Also, I bet that my Nursing Ship could be registered outside the US and be owned by a corporation in country with favorable tort laws.  Insurance costs would be negligible.

My girlfriend is a nursing home physical therapist.  I ran this idea past her, and she said I was nuts.  What if someone &#x201C;codes&#x201D; and needs to go to the hospital?  Even if you send a helicopter out for them, they will likely have a worse outcome than if an ambulance had been able to take them to the local hospital.  Nursing Ships aren&#x2019;t for every old person.  They&#x2019;re for those who are forced to choose between quality and quantity of life and prefer to trade the latter for the former.  Of course, wealthy Americans can choose both&#x2014;they can afford $60K for a suburb nursing home.  However, most middle class Americans must settle for surly nurses and human warehousing because they have no other options.  The Nursing Ship is for them.  Their relatives will be treated to individualized care from a highly trained staff, great food cooked to their liking, and abundant activities.  In exchange, octogenarians must risk dying of a heart attack instead of receiving tens of thousands of dollars worth of emergency care.  For most, this trade-off will be an easy choice.</description>
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<p>Recently, my girlfriend and I went on a weeklong cruise.  The weather was good, but my fellow Americans were generally ugly.  Most of the ship&#x2019;s crew was from Indonesia. They were not paid a lot by first world standards even though they worked 14 hour days, seemed quite well educated, and spoke fluent English.  As the week progressed, I kept wondering how they could make better use of their skills within the confines of the world&#x2019;s current immigration and trade policies.  At the same time, I heard many passengers complain about how &#x201C;small&#x201D; and &#x201C;outdated&#x201D; their 55K ton, ten year-old cruise ship was.  Apparently, boats like this are being replaced with newer, larger models.  The old ones go to less productive uses.  The third thing that struck me was how damned cheap cruises are.  We paid $580 each for the week.  At this price, one could live on a cruise ship for about $30K/year, much less than the cost of a good nursing home!</p>
<p>So, why not buy a secondhand cruise ship and retrofit it for use as a floating nursing home?  Older Americans could cut their costs in half while enjoying far superior care.  Recently, NPR reported on the lives of lowly paid nursing home employees.  They don&#x2019;t like their jobs and often treat their patients with indifference at best.  On my Nursing Ship, patients would be treated by the best, most compassionate Indonesians available.  They would receive better pay than their cruise ship jobs provided and would get months of training in basic nursing tasks.  Just like cruise ships, some of the staff might still be American, but the jobs we in the US find undesirable would be filled by people happy to have them (or at least thrilled by the pay).</p>
<p>Logistics would be tricky.  To use foreign labor, the boat would have to spend most of its time in international waters.  However, few families would place mom on a Nursing Ship if they were only able to see her a few times a year.  To solve this problem, the ship will market itself to people in three costal cities: New York, Boston, and Baltimore/DC.  Every day, the ship will sail from one city&#x2019;s port to the next.  Family can board the ship to visit their loved ones.  Local doctors can visit their patients while still billing Medicare for their services.  So that families can remain comfortable while mom is at sea or in another port, webcams will be set up in each room, and families can view their relatives&#x2019; care as it happens.</p>
<p>Being outside the US would have a drastic impact on the cost of drugs.  They could be purchased in countries with the cheapest prices and delivered to the ship by a boat or helicopter.  Also, I bet that my Nursing Ship could be registered outside the US and be owned by a corporation in country with favorable tort laws.  Insurance costs would be negligible.</p>
<p>My girlfriend is a nursing home physical therapist.  I ran this idea past her, and she said I was nuts.  What if someone &#x201C;codes&#x201D; and needs to go to the hospital?  Even if you send a helicopter out for them, they will likely have a worse outcome than if an ambulance had been able to take them to the local hospital.  Nursing Ships aren&#x2019;t for every old person.  They&#x2019;re for those who are forced to choose between quality and quantity of life and prefer to trade the latter for the former.  Of course, wealthy Americans can choose both&#x2014;they can afford $60K for a suburb nursing home.  However, most middle class Americans must settle for surly nurses and human warehousing because they have no other options.  The Nursing Ship is for them.  Their relatives will be treated to individualized care from a highly trained staff, great food cooked to their liking, and abundant activities.  In exchange, octogenarians must risk dying of a heart attack instead of receiving tens of thousands of dollars worth of emergency care.  For most, this trade-off will be an easy choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-6389</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2003 02:31:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/#comment-6389</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Gas chambers and crematoria attained permanent exile for a loathed underclass some years ago. I think it was called the final solution.</description>
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<p>Gas chambers and crematoria attained permanent exile for a loathed underclass some years ago. I think it was called the final solution.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Allen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-6358</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/#comment-6358</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

&quot;And with a guaranteed source of income there would be no reason for the offender to return to the drug industry.&quot;

This is incredibly naive.  You presuppose that people do drugs because of poverty.  Unfortunately, people do drugs because of addiction, and that addiction can become very expensive.  Almost any drug user can blow through 20k in a matter of weeks, and then wind up looking for a job in an industry that provides better access to the drugs and the money to pay for them.</description>
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<p>&#8220;And with a guaranteed source of income there would be no reason for the offender to return to the drug industry.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is incredibly naive.  You presuppose that people do drugs because of poverty.  Unfortunately, people do drugs because of addiction, and that addiction can become very expensive.  Almost any drug user can blow through 20k in a matter of weeks, and then wind up looking for a job in an industry that provides better access to the drugs and the money to pay for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Johnny</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-6206</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/#comment-6206</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Hi there.
I am from what you Americans call a Third World Country. My country is definitely not in top 27 you are talking about. 
But knowing skills of the people in my country, I would aggressively argue your statement about &quot;The former offender&#039;s education and skills might well be above average in most Third World countries&quot;. Bullshit. Surely, they speak worse English. But there are as much good specialists in all areas (in percentage to population) as in States. 
Yeah, and criminals are the same junk everywhere. &quot;Third World Countries&quot; do not need junkies from overseas (sorry, if person is in jail, he IS a junkie, even if he is non-violent one)</description>
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<p>Hi there.<br />
I am from what you Americans call a Third World Country. My country is definitely not in top 27 you are talking about.<br />
But knowing skills of the people in my country, I would aggressively argue your statement about &#8220;The former offender&#8217;s education and skills might well be above average in most Third World countries&#8221;. Bullshit. Surely, they speak worse English. But there are as much good specialists in all areas (in percentage to population) as in States.<br />
Yeah, and criminals are the same junk everywhere. &#8220;Third World Countries&#8221; do not need junkies from overseas (sorry, if person is in jail, he IS a junkie, even if he is non-violent one)</p>
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		<title>By: LuhrenLoup</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-5966</link>
		<dc:creator>LuhrenLoup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:34:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/#comment-5966</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Every state is a &quot;special repressive force&quot; for the suppression of the oppressed class.  Consequently, no state is either &quot;free&quot; or a &quot;people&#039;s state.&quot;
Lenin
People who are locked out of the economic system have always found ways to create their own by providing illegal goods and services  which the government and corporate America takes its share of  through the back door.  Our system works prefectly well to keep the masses on their toes.  Keep in mind that prisons are a great source of income for depressed towns whose leaders fight tooth and nail to have them located in their communities.</description>
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<p>Every state is a &#8220;special repressive force&#8221; for the suppression of the oppressed class.  Consequently, no state is either &#8220;free&#8221; or a &#8220;people&#8217;s state.&#8221;<br />
Lenin<br />
People who are locked out of the economic system have always found ways to create their own by providing illegal goods and services  which the government and corporate America takes its share of  through the back door.  Our system works prefectly well to keep the masses on their toes.  Keep in mind that prisons are a great source of income for depressed towns whose leaders fight tooth and nail to have them located in their communities.</p>
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		<title>By: Hacksaw</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-5958</link>
		<dc:creator>Hacksaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/#comment-5958</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Paying people off to help stop crime doesn&#039;t work. Bored people will be looking for something to do. Whatever country accepts them will get a large crime problem to go with the taxes, which in the end might cost them more. This would probably stop them from accepting anyone else.

For somewhat related information see:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/SIME-DIME83/report.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a></a></p>
<p>Paying people off to help stop crime doesn&#8217;t work. Bored people will be looking for something to do. Whatever country accepts them will get a large crime problem to go with the taxes, which in the end might cost them more. This would probably stop them from accepting anyone else.</p>
<p>For somewhat related information see:<br />
<a href="http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/SIME-DIME83/report.htm" rel="nofollow">http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/SIME-DIME83/report.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: null fame</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-5945</link>
		<dc:creator>null fame</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/#comment-5945</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

&quot;Does it make sense to keep people in prison at $25,000 per year merely because there is no place for them in the U.S. economy?&quot; 

I thought we were putting them there because we caught them trying to earn $25,000 per month in an illegal profession. Great idea, Phil--&quot;Break the law, get free money!&quot; Where do I sign up? If you give me $25,000 year, I promise I won&#039;t deal drugs. Hell, I&#039;ll even not grow corn for no extra charge.

Of course, there&#039;s the whole should-drugs-be-illegal thing in the first place, but I can&#039;t cover that in this short post. Exile is fine, though. Worked for Australia! :-)</description>
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<p>&#8220;Does it make sense to keep people in prison at $25,000 per year merely because there is no place for them in the U.S. economy?&#8221; </p>
<p>I thought we were putting them there because we caught them trying to earn $25,000 per month in an illegal profession. Great idea, Phil&#8211;&#8221;Break the law, get free money!&#8221; Where do I sign up? If you give me $25,000 year, I promise I won&#8217;t deal drugs. Hell, I&#8217;ll even not grow corn for no extra charge.</p>
<p>Of course, there&#8217;s the whole should-drugs-be-illegal thing in the first place, but I can&#8217;t cover that in this short post. Exile is fine, though. Worked for Australia! <img src='http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Tom Solomon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-5927</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Solomon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:57:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/#comment-5927</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Hey, don&#039;t worry about the von, I won&#039;t hold it against you. John von Neumann had one, of course, and he was no slouch: http://www.redfish.com/dkunkle/vonNeumann/ (Even if he didn&#039;t keep his MIT email address so that no one could forget he was smart...)</description>
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<p>Hey, don&#8217;t worry about the von, I won&#8217;t hold it against you. John von Neumann had one, of course, and he was no slouch: <a href="http://www.redfish.com/dkunkle/vonNeumann/" rel="nofollow">http://www.redfish.com/dkunkle/vonNeumann/</a> (Even if he didn&#8217;t keep his MIT email address so that no one could forget he was smart&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-5894</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/#comment-5894</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

I&#039;ve thought about that for years. Honestly I think that sending someone to Liberia to see lawlessness first hand would make them want to create a decent society where law is important.

The US jail system is completely wrong anyway, many US jails are like the movie Blow - simply training camps where people detained can plan their next crime. Finland has the system right - for non violent criminals jail terms are more like a hotel where people must live while they are reintegrated into society.

If criminal tendancies are a large part inherited (genetically) does jail really work? Shouldn&#039;t someone be looking at drug therapy?

Anthony
http://xminc.com/mt</description>
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<p>I&#8217;ve thought about that for years. Honestly I think that sending someone to Liberia to see lawlessness first hand would make them want to create a decent society where law is important.</p>
<p>The US jail system is completely wrong anyway, many US jails are like the movie Blow &#8211; simply training camps where people detained can plan their next crime. Finland has the system right &#8211; for non violent criminals jail terms are more like a hotel where people must live while they are reintegrated into society.</p>
<p>If criminal tendancies are a large part inherited (genetically) does jail really work? Shouldn&#8217;t someone be looking at drug therapy?</p>
<p>Anthony<br />
<a href="http://xminc.com/mt" rel="nofollow">http://xminc.com/mt</a></p>
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		<title>By: S.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/comment-page-1/#comment-5871</link>
		<dc:creator>S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2003/09/21/send-our-underclass-overseas/#comment-5871</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Thanks, Tom!

You&#039;re stating exactly what I am thinking (secretly)! Wow. Now I don&#039;t even need to use my self-pity anymore to seek the words to articulate what I feel to myself. Even this side of intellectual service is delivered by this board (now one doesn&#039;t even need to think oneself anymore for the words, as they are foreseen for one!). You could have excluded the &quot;von&quot; from the list of elements of your Kraut-bashing, though. As I carry it in my name I have to unfortunately feel too much included in from what I distance myself inside. But that&#039;s the price of &quot;being in the pool&quot;, I guess. And you, of course, in your quest for sincerity could never allow such superstitious considerations to get into your way...

S.</description>
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<p>Thanks, Tom!</p>
<p>You&#8217;re stating exactly what I am thinking (secretly)! Wow. Now I don&#8217;t even need to use my self-pity anymore to seek the words to articulate what I feel to myself. Even this side of intellectual service is delivered by this board (now one doesn&#8217;t even need to think oneself anymore for the words, as they are foreseen for one!). You could have excluded the &#8220;von&#8221; from the list of elements of your Kraut-bashing, though. As I carry it in my name I have to unfortunately feel too much included in from what I distance myself inside. But that&#8217;s the price of &#8220;being in the pool&#8221;, I guess. And you, of course, in your quest for sincerity could never allow such superstitious considerations to get into your way&#8230;</p>
<p>S.</p>
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