Lets just hope after “Discuss, dialog, disagree, suggest, praise and criticize or governments and leaders” the most important thing of all happens: ACTION. You dont need the enforcement agencies if you feel safe in your castle and you just ignore the problems and just do as you please. Whilst a world dominated by Bush is preferable to a world dominated by Sadam types, few would disagree that this is sub-optimal.

In reading this discussion I cannot help but think that it is great to live in countries where we can discuss, dialogue, disagree, suggest, praise and criticize our leaders and governments without recrimination or be visited by enforcement agencies. I may not agree with all I read in the posts, but I have to thank those who presented information to allow me to research and to enlighten myself on the subject. Being a Canadian married to an American I do have to say that the people of both nations are some of the most generous people around as are most of my friends in Europe and across the world. It is my hope that more and more of us become educated to the effects our actions and governments have on others, be it good or bad.. Thanks for the great discussion.

What seems really unfortunate is that the gentleman who has taken it upon himself to defend America resorts to insults and name-calling. As an American myself, I strongly disagree with a great deal that has been done in the name of my “security”, especially within the past two years or so. Does that make me anti-American? I am saddened by the comeback of a particularly vicious trend in U.S. political culture: “My Country, Right or Wrong.” Our current President put it thus: “You’re either with us or against us.” Great. No room for compromise, consensus or discussion. Bush & Co. have a monopoly on the Truth, and God help anyone who gets in their way. Well, Mr. Delacroix, that is as good an example of black & white thinking as you’ll find anywhere…

> Eugene, it is evident that you do not know democracy and the republic from which it springs forth, that you do not know inalienable rights, and that you do not know American history, its people, culture and institutions.

Abner, I don’t see how that follows from my post. American revolt was in clear breach of the British Empire’s law, which in turn had some very questionable rights on most of its territory, and each of that territories, in turn.. I think the idea is clear, and frankly, not any new at all. But rather than providing a counterargument, you start your infantile flag/cherry pie/chevrolet line combined with ad hominem attack.

Sad.

As an American, I don’t think the issue should ever be whether people hate us or hate our country or not. If we based policy on trying to maximize popularity the we would really be hypocritical and contradictory and all of things complained about above. Besides, political opinion is so very fickle. Most of this so-called hatred seems to be politically biased.

Not much has changed in US policy since five years ago when Clinton was lobbing tomahawks at Iraq without the approval of the UN. Perhaps foreigners preferred that we were ineffectual then, and perhaps they preferred Clinton’s domestic agenda to Bush, although they are nearly identical. Let’s not forget the delight of the foreign press in Clinton’s dalliances with Monica. No one ever said we were hated then, we were too good a joke. Maybe people liked that, and are nostalgic for that now.

The US media has lately been so busy quoting worriers and hand-wringers, lamenting our “loss of clout” with foreign governments, because they “hate us” and “hate Bush”, they have failed to notice we are actually much more respected now. Syria and Iran are being very careful, Arafat has been largely marginalized, and the very Europeans who flipped us the bird at the UN a year ago are on the verge of doing precisely what we are asking of them.

It will still take decades for the US to undo the mistakes and compromises that were necessary during the Cold War, such as supporting dictators that were anti-communist because larger things were at stake at the time. But I think we are on the right track to being a largely benevolent and beneficial force in the world. This will eventually be noticed.

“Did you know that Seoul is within artillary range of N. Korea? did you know that N. Korea has 11,000 cannons aimed at S. Korea? Did you know that the US spent untold billions of dollars to build S. Korea’s economy? Did you know that S. Korea does not want N. Korea disturbed in any way? Did you know that Japan has a vested interest as well? As well as China? Moron.”

Yes, I have been to Korea, and China and Japan.

I wouldnt want “vested” interests in Japan or China being disturbed, a million dead hear a million dead there pretty soon you run out of integers and it doenst matter any more. Lets face every country in Asia has got out a map and drew a red circle out from the North Korea according to the km range of the missile systems.

“Did you know that Seoul is within artillary range of N. Korea? did you know that N. Korea has 11,000 cannons aimed at S. Korea?” etc etc

But still a good customer for ABB’s nuclear power plants, so keep quiet and back to the lobbying, Donald Rumsfeld.

“Eugene, it is evident that you do not know democracy and the republic from which it springs forth” “Your arrogance and ignorance is breath taking, sir”

Err … right … tell us about democracy springing forth from the US – how long has it been since blacks got the vote? Longer than the democracy in, say, Iceland, or Turkey for that matter?

“Your arrogance and ignorance is breath taking, sir”

Pot, kettle …

Did you know that Seoul is within artillary range of N. Korea? did you know that
N. Korea has 11,000 cannons aimed at S. Korea? Did you know that the US spent untold
billions of dollars to build S. Korea’s economy? Did you know that S. Korea does not want
N. Korea disturbed in any way? Did you know that Japan has a vested interest as well? As well as China? Moron.

Eugene, it is evident that you do not know democracy and the republic from which it springs forth, that you do not know inalienable rights, and that you do not know American history, its people, culture and institutions. In short, you are as ignorant as can be and yet you are expounding on something that you obviously know nothing about in a public forum. Your arrogance and ignorance is breath taking, sir.

> Most Third World governments have no plausible claim to legitimacy.

A bogus argument. If you dig the history deep enough, you’ll find that *any* government has no plausible claim to legitimacy. Think for a while how the U.S. government got there.

Its not antiwar or even anti-intervention, but dressing up intervention in Iraq as “to free its people” is really puting lipstick on a pig. Dare I suggest the $15B rebuilding contract for Haliburton, the oil “partnerships” (that would be an interesting one sided negotiating table) that will be set up between Iraq and american oil interests. I am all for a very strong agressive interventional stance on all ruthless dictatorships to go after before Saddam (no tear in my eye when he is executed). If freedom is what it is about then there are some triple AAA grade dictatorships. Lets look at North Korea, they routinely kill their people, any hint at discontent is stomped on with ruthless and cruel violence (nice to have one of your children murdered in front of you as a warning for making a complaint), corrupt to its core, millions staved for no reason other than mismanagement, they have a crazy leader (eg. terrorist act order directly by him was the bombing of a Korean airliner killing 115), they have the bomb and missiles to put it on, plus all the usual chemical/bio weapons of mast destruction, and they have no oil.
I am sure in 200 years the North Korean dictatorship when the full terrible truth is revealed will be remembered as one of the worst or the worst of the past century. At least Kim Jong-il wasnt installed by the US.

If the world was fair and Bush walked the talk then he would be on TV, giving Kim Jong-il and his family 48 hours to get out or face the consequences. If there ever was a case for a decapitation then here is one on a plater. Pity for the people there is no oil in North Korea…maybe a few chickens but they probably are starving.