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	<title>Comments on: Low-wage workers have to choose between car and rent</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-between-car-and-rent/</link>
	<description>A posting every day; an interesting idea every three months...</description>
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		<title>By: Chris Bruno</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-between-car-and-rent/comment-page-1/#comment-756</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2005 05:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-bet#comment-756</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Great Post. I like the comment on Marx at the end. Marx was right--the industrial revolution can end scarcity as he knew it. The problem is that humans always want more and more--scarcity is relative. And whoever have the scarce commodites are entitled with honor (this is what Veblen talked about)

 Think about food--in Marx&#039;s day, food was scarce. Being plump conferred status. In the industrialized world today, however, food is not scarce. In fact, in the US people get too much of it. What people want now is the perfect body, and the closer you get to this, the higher status you have.

I think when we think about what ever human needs, we need to think Rawls and his definition of the absolute necessities. Shelter is one of them. The problem is that unskilled labor is paid according to supply and demand, and their is too much supply relative to demand. This pay is often not enough to buy the Rawlsian definition of absolute necessities. 

And there will always be unskilled workers. The solution to lifting these workers out of poverty and afford the absolute necessities cannot therefore be solved by simply stating &quot;education.&quot; There will always exist hard working dumb people who deserve to live a decent life.

Hence, unskilled workers need to obtain income from sources other than their labor. Im thinking capital income. The problem with this is that capital is, of course, not widely distributed. 

And this was the point Marx was making. Hightly concentrated capital is the source of poverty. Unskilled labor can only earn so much. Minimum wages only cause unemployment. 

It is ownership of the productive assets besides labor that afford a fine lifestyle, a lifestyle that enables people to focus on art, religion, science, leisure, and war. And when these productive assets are not widely distributed, the world will see highly unequal standards of living.</description>
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<p>Great Post. I like the comment on Marx at the end. Marx was right&#8211;the industrial revolution can end scarcity as he knew it. The problem is that humans always want more and more&#8211;scarcity is relative. And whoever have the scarce commodites are entitled with honor (this is what Veblen talked about)</p>
<p> Think about food&#8211;in Marx&#8217;s day, food was scarce. Being plump conferred status. In the industrialized world today, however, food is not scarce. In fact, in the US people get too much of it. What people want now is the perfect body, and the closer you get to this, the higher status you have.</p>
<p>I think when we think about what ever human needs, we need to think Rawls and his definition of the absolute necessities. Shelter is one of them. The problem is that unskilled labor is paid according to supply and demand, and their is too much supply relative to demand. This pay is often not enough to buy the Rawlsian definition of absolute necessities. </p>
<p>And there will always be unskilled workers. The solution to lifting these workers out of poverty and afford the absolute necessities cannot therefore be solved by simply stating &#8220;education.&#8221; There will always exist hard working dumb people who deserve to live a decent life.</p>
<p>Hence, unskilled workers need to obtain income from sources other than their labor. Im thinking capital income. The problem with this is that capital is, of course, not widely distributed. </p>
<p>And this was the point Marx was making. Hightly concentrated capital is the source of poverty. Unskilled labor can only earn so much. Minimum wages only cause unemployment. </p>
<p>It is ownership of the productive assets besides labor that afford a fine lifestyle, a lifestyle that enables people to focus on art, religion, science, leisure, and war. And when these productive assets are not widely distributed, the world will see highly unequal standards of living.</p>
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		<title>By: ptt &#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-between-car-and-rent/comment-page-1/#comment-722</link>
		<dc:creator>ptt &#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 04:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-bet#comment-722</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

&quot;Low-wage workers in America who aren&#039;t famous writers know enough to double up, triple up, or fit twelve people in a ranch house.&quot;
yeah. And, not many green-carders posting here, are there? They live in garages, warehouses and in large gullies next to avocado orchards. I&#039;ve never seen the filed housing (but seen photos) but have seen the sleeping arrangements in half-converted patios, etc. this in one of the slummier towns in one of the richest &#x2020;  areas (county) in the world. 
	&#x2020; __	as BS-measured however</description>
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<p>&#8220;Low-wage workers in America who aren&#8217;t famous writers know enough to double up, triple up, or fit twelve people in a ranch house.&#8221;<br />
yeah. And, not many green-carders posting here, are there? They live in garages, warehouses and in large gullies next to avocado orchards. I&#8217;ve never seen the filed housing (but seen photos) but have seen the sleeping arrangements in half-converted patios, etc. this in one of the slummier towns in one of the richest &#x2020;  areas (county) in the world.<br />
	&#x2020; __	as BS-measured however</p>
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		<title>By: ptt &#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-between-car-and-rent/comment-page-1/#comment-721</link>
		<dc:creator>ptt &#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 04:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-bet#comment-721</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

comment, this page.
&quot;also import the low-wage workers that build houses, roads and utilities in their countries.&quot;
It&#039;s been that way for a while now in CA. Many carpenters and foremen have Mexican accents for the obvious reason. (Union jobs are more often worked by &#039;white&#039; guys.) Mexico has a feudalistic culture, so Mexican immigrants fit in well to the conservative business culture in the USA.</description>
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<p>comment, this page.<br />
&#8220;also import the low-wage workers that build houses, roads and utilities in their countries.&#8221;<br />
It&#8217;s been that way for a while now in CA. Many carpenters and foremen have Mexican accents for the obvious reason. (Union jobs are more often worked by &#8216;white&#8217; guys.) Mexico has a feudalistic culture, so Mexican immigrants fit in well to the conservative business culture in the USA.</p>
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		<title>By: ptt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-between-car-and-rent/comment-page-1/#comment-720</link>
		<dc:creator>ptt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 04:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-bet#comment-720</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

&quot;What did Ehrenreich overlook?  Immigration!  &quot;
Immigrants help compensate for fewer people of working age (old people break). but becuase of increases in mechanical productivity and importation of goods, owners of wealth need less labor. Also, B. Ehrenreich[&#x2020;&#x2020;] &quot;overlooked&quot; the power of booze, (TV[&#x2020;], and other drug) addictions combined with death. dead people may smell revolting (for a short while), but dead people don&#039;t revolt.
&#x2020; ____ Bread and circuses.
&#x2020;&#x2020; ___ But *did* Ehrenreich predict an uprising of the workers?</description>
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<p>&#8220;What did Ehrenreich overlook?  Immigration!  &#8221;<br />
Immigrants help compensate for fewer people of working age (old people break). but becuase of increases in mechanical productivity and importation of goods, owners of wealth need less labor. Also, B. Ehrenreich[&#x2020;&#x2020;] &#8220;overlooked&#8221; the power of booze, (TV[&#x2020;], and other drug) addictions combined with death. dead people may smell revolting (for a short while), but dead people don&#8217;t revolt.<br />
&#x2020; ____ Bread and circuses.<br />
&#x2020;&#x2020; ___ But *did* Ehrenreich predict an uprising of the workers?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Mueller</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-between-car-and-rent/comment-page-1/#comment-704</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Mueller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-bet#comment-704</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Just a few days ago, New Zealand made it much tougher to immigrate here.  

When I immigrated to NZ from America a few years ago, it was a very straight-forward &quot;points&quot; system where, as Philip mentioned, I gained &quot;points&quot; for having a job offer and a university diploma, but I lost points for being just over 30 years old...  The application also allowed me to &quot;buy&quot; up to 2 points if I had a $100,000 or $200,000 New Zealand dollars to bring with me (I didn&#039;t).    

The new system is much more difficult for people to immigrate, and with the new legislation, it is even tougher:

&lt;a href=&#039;http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3248951a11,00.html&#039;&gt;http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3248951a11,00.html&lt;/a&gt;

No longer is the waiting period three years, it has been increased to five, and they have even started to require that any baby born here can only become a citizen (or permanent resident) if one of the parents are a New Zealander (unless the baby willl become stateless).

And they reduced the number of years a passport is valid for from 10 down to 5.</description>
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<p>Just a few days ago, New Zealand made it much tougher to immigrate here.  </p>
<p>When I immigrated to NZ from America a few years ago, it was a very straight-forward &#8220;points&#8221; system where, as Philip mentioned, I gained &#8220;points&#8221; for having a job offer and a university diploma, but I lost points for being just over 30 years old&#8230;  The application also allowed me to &#8220;buy&#8221; up to 2 points if I had a $100,000 or $200,000 New Zealand dollars to bring with me (I didn&#8217;t).    </p>
<p>The new system is much more difficult for people to immigrate, and with the new legislation, it is even tougher:</p>
<p><a href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3248951a11,00.html'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3248951a11,00.html</a></p>
<p>No longer is the waiting period three years, it has been increased to five, and they have even started to require that any baby born here can only become a citizen (or permanent resident) if one of the parents are a New Zealander (unless the baby willl become stateless).</p>
<p>And they reduced the number of years a passport is valid for from 10 down to 5.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt (not the first one)</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-between-car-and-rent/comment-page-1/#comment-700</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt (not the first one)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-bet#comment-700</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

&quot;Countries that value quality of life restrict immigration.&quot;

Come on, Philip, you can do better than that.  Here&#039;s one back at you: &quot;Countries that are racist and xenophobic restrict immigration.&quot;  Just as valid.

I&#039;m also surprised you liked the Ehrenreich book so much.  All it showed was that if you move to a place with a high cost of living, refuse to get a roommate, refuse to shop at thrift stores, and insist on eating from restaraunts once or twice a day, it&#039;s tough to get by as an unskilled laborer.  Well, duh.   I got by just fine on minimum wage for a year after college.  Even saved money.  Of course, I was actually trying to get by, instead of trying to prove that it was impossible to do.</description>
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<p>&#8220;Countries that value quality of life restrict immigration.&#8221;</p>
<p>Come on, Philip, you can do better than that.  Here&#8217;s one back at you: &#8220;Countries that are racist and xenophobic restrict immigration.&#8221;  Just as valid.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also surprised you liked the Ehrenreich book so much.  All it showed was that if you move to a place with a high cost of living, refuse to get a roommate, refuse to shop at thrift stores, and insist on eating from restaraunts once or twice a day, it&#8217;s tough to get by as an unskilled laborer.  Well, duh.   I got by just fine on minimum wage for a year after college.  Even saved money.  Of course, I was actually trying to get by, instead of trying to prove that it was impossible to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Gottlieb</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-between-car-and-rent/comment-page-1/#comment-694</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Gottlieb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-bet#comment-694</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

JF, you were asking why developers cannot make high density housing and I can tell you from experience it is due primarily to local regulations.  Consider just the economics of schools; with the present school infrastructure at or exceeding legal capacity in many areas the marginal cost of each additional student can be huge.  High density housing brings many more pupils per school tax dollar than expensive housing.  Other economics also favor larger homes, such as increased site preparation costs, environmental impact statements and management and other fixed costs per home.

My father (an architect) was part of a project with the American Institute of Architects to design high density housing and while they received many very interesting submissions nothing ever came of it due to butting up against zoning restrictions and public opposition (NIMBY).</description>
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<p>JF, you were asking why developers cannot make high density housing and I can tell you from experience it is due primarily to local regulations.  Consider just the economics of schools; with the present school infrastructure at or exceeding legal capacity in many areas the marginal cost of each additional student can be huge.  High density housing brings many more pupils per school tax dollar than expensive housing.  Other economics also favor larger homes, such as increased site preparation costs, environmental impact statements and management and other fixed costs per home.</p>
<p>My father (an architect) was part of a project with the American Institute of Architects to design high density housing and while they received many very interesting submissions nothing ever came of it due to butting up against zoning restrictions and public opposition (NIMBY).</p>
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		<title>By: Konrad</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-between-car-and-rent/comment-page-1/#comment-692</link>
		<dc:creator>Konrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-bet#comment-692</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

As someone else has noted, high housing prices are not due to a stagnation in construction technology but to new regulations.

Even with all the new technology developed in the last 50 years, it costs more in inflation-adjusted dollars to build the same house. The government seems to believe that all those older houses are so dangerous they can no longer be legally built. You may not be able to afford a house, but at least you won&#039;t live in one of those deathtraps which will collapse any minute now, just wait.

It&#039;s for your own good, you see.</description>
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<p>As someone else has noted, high housing prices are not due to a stagnation in construction technology but to new regulations.</p>
<p>Even with all the new technology developed in the last 50 years, it costs more in inflation-adjusted dollars to build the same house. The government seems to believe that all those older houses are so dangerous they can no longer be legally built. You may not be able to afford a house, but at least you won&#8217;t live in one of those deathtraps which will collapse any minute now, just wait.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s for your own good, you see.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Barker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-between-car-and-rent/comment-page-1/#comment-691</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Barker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-bet#comment-691</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Live like immigrants.

In an a appartment building in downtown Toronto my friend told me he saw an appartment where 6 Indian immegrants live in a 1 bedroom appartment by using 3 bunkbeds.

None of them have cars and all work in low paying jobs (typically low skilled construction jobs or other services). He figures they can live this way on $2-300 per month.</description>
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<p>Live like immigrants.</p>
<p>In an a appartment building in downtown Toronto my friend told me he saw an appartment where 6 Indian immegrants live in a 1 bedroom appartment by using 3 bunkbeds.</p>
<p>None of them have cars and all work in low paying jobs (typically low skilled construction jobs or other services). He figures they can live this way on $2-300 per month.</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-between-car-and-rent/comment-page-1/#comment-690</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:40:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philgtest/2005/04/06/low-wage-workers-have-to-choose-bet#comment-690</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Your observation about the &quot;stagnation in construction technology&quot; might apply to most industries in the West. A lot of automation is waiting in the wings for the time when human labor is too expensive, or too scarce. Robots don&#039;t need cheap housing, food, or cars.</description>
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<p>Your observation about the &#8220;stagnation in construction technology&#8221; might apply to most industries in the West. A lot of automation is waiting in the wings for the time when human labor is too expensive, or too scarce. Robots don&#8217;t need cheap housing, food, or cars.</p>
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