Comments on: Best Computer Language for a 13-year-old Beginner? http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-old-beginner/ A posting every day; an interesting idea every three months... Sun, 29 Nov 2009 20:08:49 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: 2Corin517 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-old-beginner/comment-page-2/#comment-115734 2Corin517 Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:50:29 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-ol#comment-115734 I just happened to stumble upon this post looking for some statistical analysis of the required languages for a novice (and paid) programmer in the major gaming fields. I'm fourteen, I just turned fourteen, I've just come from an entire year of being thirteen. I'm quite disappointed by a great deal of the comments here, I tried out Game Maker pretty recently, I was dead bored within five minutes. While true I've been programming for three years and just released a quick RPG in C++ and enter in an annual speedgame competition, but seriously, even when I was ten I felt underestimated. There's a MASSIVE difference between a twelve year old and an eleven year old. Look at the senior programmers of today. They started in ASM, the kid's not going to die if what he learns in doesn't have a gui. My guess is the kids want games, but its quite possible that I'm wrong, we're not given enough information as for the motivation. VB isn't a bad choice as far as I know, I don't have any experience with it, but I wouldn't discount it. Something not mentioned yet is the language BlitzMax and BlitzBasic. www.blitzmax.com I learned in BlitzBasic and it was a great start for me, built in OpenGL and DirectX, Hello World isn't tough (unlike Java, I looked at that program and it was a nightmare) its also pretty simple, but incredibly powerful. I personally have written a small game engine written entirely in BlitzMax, power is no concern. Its quite simple and logical, if they pick up a few programming books, with enough dedication they should be able to be making games within less than a week. Built-in OpenGL if they want to use it, but personally I prefer RPGs. There's two books currently out for BlitzBasic as well as a pretty substantial community. Finally on habits. BlitzMax allows you to integrate quite a few C languages into the language, was written in C, and gets pretty close to C-Like performance. The syntax is also a lot like C, but without the lovely things called brackets and case sensitivity that are both lovely and confusing. If they want they can even get into pointers. That's quite the line-up of advantages. Its also object-oriented without requiring them to immediately learn the foreign way of thinking. I just happened to stumble upon this post looking for some statistical analysis of the required languages for a novice (and paid) programmer in the major gaming fields.
I’m fourteen, I just turned fourteen, I’ve just come from an entire year of being thirteen. I’m quite disappointed by a great deal of the comments here, I tried out Game Maker pretty recently, I was dead bored within five minutes. While true I’ve been programming for three years and just released a quick RPG in C++ and enter in an annual speedgame competition, but seriously, even when I was ten I felt underestimated. There’s a MASSIVE difference between a twelve year old and an eleven year old. Look at the senior programmers of today. They started in ASM, the kid’s not going to die if what he learns in doesn’t have a gui.
My guess is the kids want games, but its quite possible that I’m wrong, we’re not given enough information as for the motivation. VB isn’t a bad choice as far as I know, I don’t have any experience with it, but I wouldn’t discount it. Something not mentioned yet is the language BlitzMax and BlitzBasic. http://www.blitzmax.com I learned in BlitzBasic and it was a great start for me, built in OpenGL and DirectX, Hello World isn’t tough (unlike Java, I looked at that program and it was a nightmare) its also pretty simple, but incredibly powerful.
I personally have written a small game engine written entirely in BlitzMax, power is no concern.
Its quite simple and logical, if they pick up a few programming books, with enough dedication they should be able to be making games within less than a week. Built-in OpenGL if they want to use it, but personally I prefer RPGs. There’s two books currently out for BlitzBasic as well as a pretty substantial community.
Finally on habits. BlitzMax allows you to integrate quite a few C languages into the language, was written in C, and gets pretty close to C-Like performance. The syntax is also a lot like C, but without the lovely things called brackets and case sensitivity that are both lovely and confusing. If they want they can even get into pointers. That’s quite the line-up of advantages. Its also object-oriented without requiring them to immediately learn the foreign way of thinking.

]]> By: Contrablue http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-old-beginner/comment-page-2/#comment-81293 Contrablue Mon, 12 May 2008 21:46:08 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-ol#comment-81293 I've been a software developer for, and started in personal computing in, 1977. I've seen many technologies rise and fall, but I've been able to stay ahead of the game financially and professionally by choosing what I will invest my time in very carefully. There are a couple of languages that have been in continuous use since I started in the field; all are in decline now, and yet each of them was enormously influential. These are C/C++, Smalltalk, and Basic (I don't include Cobol because it has never been widely used in personal computing and is virtually dead). I would not advocate learning any of these languages for someone who wants to become a software developer. Rather, I recommend learning languages that took the best ideas of these progenitors and which are themselves reasonably mature now (that is, there's a job market out there) and accessible (suitable as a first or second programming language). I'd recommend learning JavaScript first. It blends many of the greatest ideas of Smalltalk and Basic, with a few from C/C++ too. It is dynamic, object-oriented, reflective, interpretive, and easy to learn. Amazing things have been and can be done with JavaScript. It also runs on almost anything. Pocket PCs, Smartphones, laptops, desktops. Finally, it is a web language, and is used in the most contemporary websites. There are a few things that JavaScript isn't so good for. For those things, I would recommend either, or both, Java and C#. These are very similar languages, and have equivalent capabilities. A programmer can become proficient in both, but is likely only to master one of them, due to the differences in class libraries and environments. Java and C# ,too, are inspired by Smalltalk, Basic, and C/C++. They exchange a bit of approachability and dynamism for better performance, suitability for server software development, and great robustness. Both are supported with a range of design and development tools, librarys, server side development frameworks, etc. Excellent employment opportunities exist for people with skills in these languages, and this will be true for many years. I’ve been a software developer for, and started in personal computing in, 1977. I’ve seen many technologies rise and fall, but I’ve been able to stay ahead of the game financially and professionally by choosing what I will invest my time in very carefully.

There are a couple of languages that have been in continuous use since I started in the field; all are in decline now, and yet each of them was enormously influential. These are C/C++, Smalltalk, and Basic (I don’t include Cobol because it has never been widely used in personal computing and is virtually dead). I would not advocate learning any of these languages for someone who wants to become a software developer. Rather, I recommend learning languages that took the best ideas of these progenitors and which are themselves reasonably mature now (that is, there’s a job market out there) and accessible (suitable as a first or second programming language).

I’d recommend learning JavaScript first. It blends many of the greatest ideas of Smalltalk and Basic, with a few from C/C++ too. It is dynamic, object-oriented, reflective, interpretive, and easy to learn. Amazing things have been and can be done with JavaScript. It also runs on almost anything. Pocket PCs, Smartphones, laptops, desktops. Finally, it is a web language, and is used in the most contemporary websites.

There are a few things that JavaScript isn’t so good for. For those things, I would recommend either, or both, Java and C#. These are very similar languages, and have equivalent capabilities. A programmer can become proficient in both, but is likely only to master one of them, due to the differences in class libraries and environments.

Java and C# ,too, are inspired by Smalltalk, Basic, and C/C++. They exchange a bit of approachability and dynamism for better performance, suitability for server software development, and great robustness. Both are supported with a range of design and development tools, librarys, server side development frameworks, etc. Excellent employment opportunities exist for people with skills in these languages, and this will be true for many years.

]]> By: Bob, no not really http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-old-beginner/comment-page-2/#comment-78610 Bob, no not really Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:39:30 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-ol#comment-78610 Comming form a 14-year old here is my opinion: Learn Basic or Javascript first, these are simple and are fun if your a real programmer, not a gammer. Then learn some simple stuff in Ruby. Later try to learn AS2, not AS3 (Flash languages), these can be really fun, and you can make games like the ones you play. Then your about ready to learn C++, but your would have to be dedicated (not just learn the basics). If you don't like C++ or learn it well move onto Java. This is close to the route I took... I started when I was in 3rd grade, so yeah... I am learning C++ and Java now. But I would be using AS2 if it didn't cost $600!!! Comming form a 14-year old here is my opinion:

Learn Basic or Javascript first, these are simple and are fun if your a real programmer, not a gammer. Then learn some simple stuff in Ruby. Later try to learn AS2, not AS3 (Flash languages), these can be really fun, and you can make games like the ones you play. Then your about ready to learn C++, but your would have to be dedicated (not just learn the basics). If you don’t like C++ or learn it well move onto Java.

This is close to the route I took… I started when I was in 3rd grade, so yeah… I am learning C++ and Java now. But I would be using AS2 if it didn’t cost $600!!!

]]> By: Eric http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-old-beginner/comment-page-2/#comment-59431 Eric Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:52:18 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-ol#comment-59431 Depends a bunch on what they mean by "programming". That might mean anything from "build a web page" to "write a game". Another option is popfly... http://www.popfly.ms/Overview/ Depends a bunch on what they mean by “programming”. That might mean anything from “build a web page” to “write a game”.

Another option is popfly…

http://www.popfly.ms/Overview/

]]> By: cris http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-old-beginner/comment-page-2/#comment-59354 cris Sun, 02 Dec 2007 22:42:33 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-ol#comment-59354 im 10 and im programing c and perl the best is perl all you ned to enter is the code im 10 and im programing c and perl the best is perl all you ned to enter is the code

]]> By: Peter http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-old-beginner/comment-page-2/#comment-51460 Peter Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:51:49 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-ol#comment-51460 I was going to make a similar response to Michael #63 before I saw his. I'd start with one of the Hollywood graphics CAD packages or a Video Game design package. Its very high level when you start. But then you fair quickly progress into the CAD scripting language to do complicated things (like writing macros in Excel). Then when you become a power-user you can attach your own subroutines written in a conventional computer programming language. Unfortunately I cant recommend a particular package because I havent used them that deeply, but I see them all the time at the SIGGRAPH exhibitions. The ones I use are for scientific visualisation, not entertainment, though the designs are similar. There are inexpensive low-end CAD things like Animation Master. Alternatively there are discount student versions of professional packages like Alias-Maya or Soft-Image which have watermarks or output limitations to prevent professional use. I was going to make a similar response to Michael #63 before I saw his. I’d start with one of the Hollywood graphics CAD packages or a Video Game design package. Its very high level when you start. But then you fair quickly progress into the CAD scripting language to do complicated things (like writing macros in Excel). Then when you become a power-user you can attach your own subroutines written in a conventional computer programming language.

Unfortunately I cant recommend a particular package because I havent used them that deeply, but I see them all the time at the SIGGRAPH exhibitions. The ones I use are for scientific visualisation, not entertainment, though the designs are similar. There are inexpensive low-end CAD things like Animation Master. Alternatively there are discount student versions of professional packages like Alias-Maya or Soft-Image which have watermarks or output limitations to prevent professional use.

]]> By: Karl Knechtel http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-old-beginner/comment-page-2/#comment-49012 Karl Knechtel Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:48:01 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-ol#comment-49012 With all these comments about Python (among other similar languages), and links to projects like HacketyHack, etc. (in said other languages), I can't believe I'm first to mention <a href="http://gvr.sourceforge.net/" rel="nofollow">Guido Van Robot.</a>... With all these comments about Python (among other similar languages), and links to projects like HacketyHack, etc. (in said other languages), I can’t believe I’m first to mention Guido Van Robot.…

]]> By: Michael http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-old-beginner/comment-page-2/#comment-48572 Michael Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:49:47 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-ol#comment-48572 I think the issue with kids programming is how much they have to learn before then can do anything that interests them. With most languages you have to know a great deal before you can do anything that is of interest to an eleven year old. My 11 year old was teaching himself python. The syntax is very clean compared to any of the C family of languages. He spend some time writing programs that ask you your name and then insulted you. This got old after a while. Then he discovered he can create mods for a open source game called Battle of Wesnoth, which is not quite programming but closer than most things. He has been working on mods ever since and has done far more than I thought was possible with it. When he was 9 he started Stagecast and I highly recommend it. Stagecast is icon based and can be used to create games. You can quickly create a simple game (move your charature around a maze). The most complicated game we made was a pacman type game. It was a good way to get him to start thinking about basic programming issues like looping, branching and why isn't this program doing what I want. From there we moved to Game Maker (windows only). This is also icon based though it has a scripting language you can use. Game Maker it much more complicated that Stagecast and you can create far more complicated games with it. Game Maker is a very rich program and there is a great deal you can do with it. He tried Alice and Scratch and while he was very excited by them, he never actually did anything with them. I think the issue with kids programming is how much they have to learn before then can do anything that interests them. With most languages you have to know a great deal before you can do anything that is of interest to an eleven year old.

My 11 year old was teaching himself python. The syntax is very clean compared to any of the C family of languages. He spend some time writing programs that ask you your name and then insulted you. This got old after a while.

Then he discovered he can create mods for a open source game called Battle of Wesnoth, which is not quite programming but closer than most things. He has been working on mods ever since and has done far more than I thought was possible with it.

When he was 9 he started Stagecast and I highly recommend it. Stagecast is icon based and can be used to create games. You can quickly create a simple game (move your charature around a maze). The most complicated game we made was a pacman type game. It was a good way to get him to start thinking about basic programming issues like looping, branching and why isn’t this program doing what I want.

From there we moved to Game Maker (windows only). This is also icon based though it has a scripting language you can use. Game Maker it much more complicated that Stagecast and you can create far more complicated games with it. Game Maker is a very rich program and there is a great deal you can do with it.

He tried Alice and Scratch and while he was very excited by them, he never actually did anything with them.

]]> By: Yiannis Volos http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-old-beginner/comment-page-2/#comment-48142 Yiannis Volos Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:47:27 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-ol#comment-48142 Hi, if kids get excited with mobile apps... Maybe the 2007 VB is Adobe Flash Lite, that kids could learn with ease and visually develop mobile applications blending with some actionscript. They've heard probably about Flash already so that could get the kids excited. I think t's more about knowing that is possible to creating something from your imagination that acts as a motive. A powerful language in the beginning will be useless for them anyway... For mobile, also the fresh JavaFx Mobile sounds interesting: http://www.sun.com/software/javafx/mobile/index.jsp Faried Nawaz: For Symbian 60 3rd Edition signing the application is mandatory, you can allow your phone to run any application, although signing its free for freeware applications: https://www.symbiansigned.com/app/page/overview/freewareFaq http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/5f6e9bc6-239a-4c8d-81d4-9256c5de1f9c/Freeware_opp_S60_1_1_en.pdf.html Hi, if kids get excited with mobile apps…

Maybe the 2007 VB is Adobe Flash Lite, that kids could learn with ease and visually develop mobile applications blending with some actionscript. They’ve heard probably about Flash already so that could get the kids excited. I think t’s more about knowing that is possible to creating something from your imagination that acts as a motive. A powerful language in the beginning will be useless for them anyway…

For mobile, also the fresh JavaFx Mobile sounds interesting:
http://www.sun.com/software/javafx/mobile/index.jsp

Faried Nawaz: For Symbian 60 3rd Edition signing the application is mandatory, you can allow your phone to run any application, although signing its free for freeware applications:

https://www.symbiansigned.com/app/page/overview/freewareFaq

http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/5f6e9bc6-239a-4c8d-81d4-9256c5de1f9c/Freeware_opp_S60_1_1_en.pdf.html

]]> By: Daniel L. Taylor http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-old-beginner/comment-page-2/#comment-48041 Daniel L. Taylor Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:25:15 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2007/11/04/best-computer-language-for-a-13-year-ol#comment-48041 It would be helpful to know precisely why they want to learn some programming. Do they want to learn how to develop software, or just automate MySpace updates? If they actually want to learn about software development: VB.NET or C# and a copy of Code Complete by Steve Mcconnell. There's not much else that is going to let them accomplish more faster. The editor and online documentation is designed to keep helpful information at your fingertips. And the .NET framework is fairly easy to understand and put to use while still being comprehensive. It's important that they don't get stuck in the mud while trying to write their first programs, and I think the entire .NET environment will keep them moving forward. Which syntax? Flip a coin. They're so close to one another that anyone proficient in one can work in the other. (I can't help but laugh when people argue about the two.) Stay away from VB6 as the .NET framework is a much better example of OOP. It would be helpful to know precisely why they want to learn some programming. Do they want to learn how to develop software, or just automate MySpace updates?

If they actually want to learn about software development: VB.NET or C# and a copy of Code Complete by Steve Mcconnell. There’s not much else that is going to let them accomplish more faster. The editor and online documentation is designed to keep helpful information at your fingertips. And the .NET framework is fairly easy to understand and put to use while still being comprehensive. It’s important that they don’t get stuck in the mud while trying to write their first programs, and I think the entire .NET environment will keep them moving forward.

Which syntax? Flip a coin. They’re so close to one another that anyone proficient in one can work in the other. (I can’t help but laugh when people argue about the two.)

Stay away from VB6 as the .NET framework is a much better example of OOP.

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