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	<title>Comments on: Economic Recovery Plan for the U.S.</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/11/19/economic-recovery-plan-for-the-us/</link>
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		<title>By: philg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/11/19/economic-recovery-plan-for-the-us/comment-page-1/#comment-94412</link>
		<dc:creator>philg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 04:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1130#comment-94412</guid>
		<description>David:  In the U.S., a registered nurse earns more than the national average wage (though not as much as a sports star!).  With $5 trillion in national debt, I don&#039;t think that we need research to show that an immigrant who is going to pay a lot of taxes is a valuable immigrant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David:  In the U.S., a registered nurse earns more than the national average wage (though not as much as a sports star!).  With $5 trillion in national debt, I don&#8217;t think that we need research to show that an immigrant who is going to pay a lot of taxes is a valuable immigrant.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/11/19/economic-recovery-plan-for-the-us/comment-page-1/#comment-94407</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 00:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1130#comment-94407</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m interested by your point about needing &#039;immigration that encourages high earners&#039;.

Is that the only way someone can contribute to society by paying taxes? It would seem odd in that case that the UK has been encouraging nurses from all over the world to come and work in the UK health system, as they do not contribute a huge amount in taxes.

Indeed, a top UK soccer player apparently earns more in a week that a nurse will in 5 years. But which do you think would affect society more - the loss of all the nurses, or all the football players?

I would be fascinated if anyone could point to any research that shows a positive correlation between an individual&#039;s level of earnings and their contribution to the business or country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m interested by your point about needing &#8216;immigration that encourages high earners&#8217;.</p>
<p>Is that the only way someone can contribute to society by paying taxes? It would seem odd in that case that the UK has been encouraging nurses from all over the world to come and work in the UK health system, as they do not contribute a huge amount in taxes.</p>
<p>Indeed, a top UK soccer player apparently earns more in a week that a nurse will in 5 years. But which do you think would affect society more &#8211; the loss of all the nurses, or all the football players?</p>
<p>I would be fascinated if anyone could point to any research that shows a positive correlation between an individual&#8217;s level of earnings and their contribution to the business or country.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/11/19/economic-recovery-plan-for-the-us/comment-page-1/#comment-94214</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1130#comment-94214</guid>
		<description>Re. your proposals on education and allowing parents to chose the school their kids go to.

In the UK for a number of years much has been made by the government that what people really want is choice in public services. Apparently, people don&#039;t want to go their local hospital, they want to go to the best hospital. They don&#039;t want to send their kids to the local comp (comprehensive school), they want to get them in to the inner city academy a few miles away. 

This is quite clearly nonsense - what people really want is for their local hospital, school or whatever to be up to scratch so they don&#039;t have to bother finding out where a better alternative is and then spend half their lives (in the case of schools) ferrying kids to and from.

Furthermore, it is impossible for everyone to send their children to the school of their choice - everyone wants to go to the &#039;best&#039; school, which, obviously, has limited places. The majority, therefore do not get their first choice - the idea of choice is an illusion.

The system in the UK gives priority (justifiably - given concerns about inner city transport etc. etc.) to children who live within the catchment area of the school. Only a smallish proportion of places are allocated for those living outside the catchment. This has the inevitable effect of driving up property prices within the catchment of &#039;good&#039; schools - thereby self-selecting middle class children for the good schools and leaving poorer families (whose children typically do less well at school in any case) to attend the schools which no one wants to go to. Which in turns makes their results bad and their place in the league tables drop which means that no one wants to go there . . . . .

Meanwhile the good schools get all the support one expects from having a bunch of middle-class wealthy families involved (including many parents paying for additional private tuition) which means their results get better, competition for places gets more intense (it has been known for families to suddenly become Christian, if the good school is a church-based institution) and so it all starts again.

Merely allowing people to chose schools does nothing to improve the bad ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re. your proposals on education and allowing parents to chose the school their kids go to.</p>
<p>In the UK for a number of years much has been made by the government that what people really want is choice in public services. Apparently, people don&#8217;t want to go their local hospital, they want to go to the best hospital. They don&#8217;t want to send their kids to the local comp (comprehensive school), they want to get them in to the inner city academy a few miles away. </p>
<p>This is quite clearly nonsense &#8211; what people really want is for their local hospital, school or whatever to be up to scratch so they don&#8217;t have to bother finding out where a better alternative is and then spend half their lives (in the case of schools) ferrying kids to and from.</p>
<p>Furthermore, it is impossible for everyone to send their children to the school of their choice &#8211; everyone wants to go to the &#8216;best&#8217; school, which, obviously, has limited places. The majority, therefore do not get their first choice &#8211; the idea of choice is an illusion.</p>
<p>The system in the UK gives priority (justifiably &#8211; given concerns about inner city transport etc. etc.) to children who live within the catchment area of the school. Only a smallish proportion of places are allocated for those living outside the catchment. This has the inevitable effect of driving up property prices within the catchment of &#8216;good&#8217; schools &#8211; thereby self-selecting middle class children for the good schools and leaving poorer families (whose children typically do less well at school in any case) to attend the schools which no one wants to go to. Which in turns makes their results bad and their place in the league tables drop which means that no one wants to go there . . . . .</p>
<p>Meanwhile the good schools get all the support one expects from having a bunch of middle-class wealthy families involved (including many parents paying for additional private tuition) which means their results get better, competition for places gets more intense (it has been known for families to suddenly become Christian, if the good school is a church-based institution) and so it all starts again.</p>
<p>Merely allowing people to chose schools does nothing to improve the bad ones.</p>
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		<title>By: GeoffB</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/11/19/economic-recovery-plan-for-the-us/comment-page-1/#comment-94201</link>
		<dc:creator>GeoffB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1130#comment-94201</guid>
		<description>That’s supposedly how the free market works and why a Radiologist earns more than a PHP programmer.

I agree with your principle overall, but I disagree with your specific example.  The US government created special and elaborate regulations to ensure that Radiologists would be insulated from foreign competition, while it created special visas to ensure that US Corps would be able to hire PHP programmers from overseas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That’s supposedly how the free market works and why a Radiologist earns more than a PHP programmer.</p>
<p>I agree with your principle overall, but I disagree with your specific example.  The US government created special and elaborate regulations to ensure that Radiologists would be insulated from foreign competition, while it created special visas to ensure that US Corps would be able to hire PHP programmers from overseas.</p>
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		<title>By: philg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/11/19/economic-recovery-plan-for-the-us/comment-page-1/#comment-94193</link>
		<dc:creator>philg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1130#comment-94193</guid>
		<description>Roger:  I believe that the first $87,600 of foreign earned income is tax-free for U.S. citizens living abroad (source: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97130,00.html ).  Thus nearly 80 percent of Americans who moved to a country without income tax, and kept the same salary, would owe no U.S. income tax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger:  I believe that the first $87,600 of foreign earned income is tax-free for U.S. citizens living abroad (source: <a href="http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97130,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97130,00.html</a> ).  Thus nearly 80 percent of Americans who moved to a country without income tax, and kept the same salary, would owe no U.S. income tax.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/11/19/economic-recovery-plan-for-the-us/comment-page-1/#comment-94189</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1130#comment-94189</guid>
		<description>Phil, are you aware that US citizens are required to pay US taxes no matter where they live in the world?  (You do get some credit for local taxes paid for countries the US has a tax treaty with).  The US is rather unique in doing this.

Consequently any US citizen moving elsewhere will still have to pay.  The only way to avoid it is to renounce your US citizenship which also means you will never be allowed back in the country and you will have to get citizenship of another country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil, are you aware that US citizens are required to pay US taxes no matter where they live in the world?  (You do get some credit for local taxes paid for countries the US has a tax treaty with).  The US is rather unique in doing this.</p>
<p>Consequently any US citizen moving elsewhere will still have to pay.  The only way to avoid it is to renounce your US citizenship which also means you will never be allowed back in the country and you will have to get citizenship of another country.</p>
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		<title>By: Neal Lester</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/11/19/economic-recovery-plan-for-the-us/comment-page-1/#comment-94188</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal Lester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1130#comment-94188</guid>
		<description>Just getting rid of public sector unions won&#039;t help much and may not be necessary to effect the changes actually required.  Unlike the private sector, public sector management salaries are closer to and correlated with the salaries of their employees.  Management pension systems are the same as or modeled on the systems provided to their employees.  Public sector managers are well incented to raise the salaries and benefits of their employees even without unions. Because government organizations wield state power they are often insulated from the consequences of their poor performance.  Unions are not blameless, but the root cause of poor government performance is really the disconnect between performance and consequences at the organizational, management, and line-worker levels.

At least two inter-dependent changes are required:

1) Create structural feedback mechanisms that hold government entities accountable for their performance.  This is relatively straightforward for some organizations (e.g. schools as mentioned in your plan) but is more difficult for others (e.g. police and prisons).

2) Enable government entities to easily discipline and fire poor performing managers and employees without bringing back the political cronyism that preceded the civil service era. Unfortunately, I&#039;m not aware of anyone with a clear proven idea on how to do this.  Perhaps senior managers could be selected and fired by civil servants while being empowered to discipline and fire those same civil servants.

The Democratic solution (raise taxes and spending to maintain a decent level of service) and Republican solution (cut taxes and borrow the funds needed to maintain a decent level of service) are both unsustainable. You identify some areas where cutting the level of service is appropriate.  Real solutions in other areas will require much more than simply getting rid of unions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just getting rid of public sector unions won&#8217;t help much and may not be necessary to effect the changes actually required.  Unlike the private sector, public sector management salaries are closer to and correlated with the salaries of their employees.  Management pension systems are the same as or modeled on the systems provided to their employees.  Public sector managers are well incented to raise the salaries and benefits of their employees even without unions. Because government organizations wield state power they are often insulated from the consequences of their poor performance.  Unions are not blameless, but the root cause of poor government performance is really the disconnect between performance and consequences at the organizational, management, and line-worker levels.</p>
<p>At least two inter-dependent changes are required:</p>
<p>1) Create structural feedback mechanisms that hold government entities accountable for their performance.  This is relatively straightforward for some organizations (e.g. schools as mentioned in your plan) but is more difficult for others (e.g. police and prisons).</p>
<p>2) Enable government entities to easily discipline and fire poor performing managers and employees without bringing back the political cronyism that preceded the civil service era. Unfortunately, I&#8217;m not aware of anyone with a clear proven idea on how to do this.  Perhaps senior managers could be selected and fired by civil servants while being empowered to discipline and fire those same civil servants.</p>
<p>The Democratic solution (raise taxes and spending to maintain a decent level of service) and Republican solution (cut taxes and borrow the funds needed to maintain a decent level of service) are both unsustainable. You identify some areas where cutting the level of service is appropriate.  Real solutions in other areas will require much more than simply getting rid of unions.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/11/19/economic-recovery-plan-for-the-us/comment-page-1/#comment-94183</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1130#comment-94183</guid>
		<description>anon: 

Obviously you are not much of a free marketer :) 

How&#039;s this for an alternative explanation of the health care industry&#039;s problems.

1) Health care is taxed
2) To avoid taxes, companies buy their employees pretax health care plans, effectively 50% cheaper
3) The employee gets sick, and goes to the doctor
4) The doctor says &quot;you may have chronic ecphalneurinitinitinis!  I&#039;d say its only about a 1% chance, but you should have a 5000$ test to make sure&quot;
5) Employee: &quot;What&#039;s my copay?&quot;
6) Doctor: 5$

IMO the real problem with health care is that the free market is NOT brought to bear, because of the stupid HMOs.  If people had to pay for their health care on a day to day basis, they would think twice before going in for some 200$ doctor visit.  And, suddenly health care institutions would have to actually compete on price.  Do you know that most of the time it is not even possible to ask a doctor what the price is for a certain operation?  They take it for granted that you don&#039;t care.  

So, to fix the problem all we have to do is make all healthcare tax free, at which point the HMOs and their bureaucratic waste will disappear, the health care industry, forced to compete on price, will become 2x cheaper, and 80% of the wasted services will go away.  Problem solved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anon: </p>
<p>Obviously you are not much of a free marketer <img src='http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>How&#8217;s this for an alternative explanation of the health care industry&#8217;s problems.</p>
<p>1) Health care is taxed<br />
2) To avoid taxes, companies buy their employees pretax health care plans, effectively 50% cheaper<br />
3) The employee gets sick, and goes to the doctor<br />
4) The doctor says &#8220;you may have chronic ecphalneurinitinitinis!  I&#8217;d say its only about a 1% chance, but you should have a 5000$ test to make sure&#8221;<br />
5) Employee: &#8220;What&#8217;s my copay?&#8221;<br />
6) Doctor: 5$</p>
<p>IMO the real problem with health care is that the free market is NOT brought to bear, because of the stupid HMOs.  If people had to pay for their health care on a day to day basis, they would think twice before going in for some 200$ doctor visit.  And, suddenly health care institutions would have to actually compete on price.  Do you know that most of the time it is not even possible to ask a doctor what the price is for a certain operation?  They take it for granted that you don&#8217;t care.  </p>
<p>So, to fix the problem all we have to do is make all healthcare tax free, at which point the HMOs and their bureaucratic waste will disappear, the health care industry, forced to compete on price, will become 2x cheaper, and 80% of the wasted services will go away.  Problem solved.</p>
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		<title>By: philg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/11/19/economic-recovery-plan-for-the-us/comment-page-1/#comment-94159</link>
		<dc:creator>philg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1130#comment-94159</guid>
		<description>Minimum Wagers:  In many states the market-clearing wage for most jobs is already above the statutory minimum wage.  It is not the minimum wage law that keeps employers from paying people $1 per hour to work in a sweatshop.  Suppose that you&#039;re a new pilot eager to build flight time or a fresh high school graduate, living with your parents, wanting to get experience in the electrical or plumbing trade.  The minimum wage might keep an employer from hiring you as an apprentice, thus denying you the experience that you need to get the next job.

Chris #2:  I have to admit that I spent the last 7 years waiting for massive inflation.  With interest rates so low and government spending so high, it seemed inevitable.  But I guess it is time to admit that I was wrong.  Labor costs are a big driver of prices in the U.S. and with millions of Americans losing their jobs it would seem that labor costs are going to fall.

Chris:  Is it all right if another country drains away our best people?  What&#039;s the alternative?  Soviet-style exit visa controls?  If a young well-educated American decides that he or she would prefer to emigrate and skip out on paying for trillions in bond and pension obligations incurred by his parents and grandparents, I don&#039;t think it would be fair to chain the young citizen to his or her desk for the next 50 years so that we can extract taxes.  I would not expect an African-style brain drain, but something like what happened to England after World War II seems possible (a lot of young English citizens emigrated to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa rather than help pick up the pieces and pay the debt incurred while fighting the Germans).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Minimum Wagers:  In many states the market-clearing wage for most jobs is already above the statutory minimum wage.  It is not the minimum wage law that keeps employers from paying people $1 per hour to work in a sweatshop.  Suppose that you&#8217;re a new pilot eager to build flight time or a fresh high school graduate, living with your parents, wanting to get experience in the electrical or plumbing trade.  The minimum wage might keep an employer from hiring you as an apprentice, thus denying you the experience that you need to get the next job.</p>
<p>Chris #2:  I have to admit that I spent the last 7 years waiting for massive inflation.  With interest rates so low and government spending so high, it seemed inevitable.  But I guess it is time to admit that I was wrong.  Labor costs are a big driver of prices in the U.S. and with millions of Americans losing their jobs it would seem that labor costs are going to fall.</p>
<p>Chris:  Is it all right if another country drains away our best people?  What&#8217;s the alternative?  Soviet-style exit visa controls?  If a young well-educated American decides that he or she would prefer to emigrate and skip out on paying for trillions in bond and pension obligations incurred by his parents and grandparents, I don&#8217;t think it would be fair to chain the young citizen to his or her desk for the next 50 years so that we can extract taxes.  I would not expect an African-style brain drain, but something like what happened to England after World War II seems possible (a lot of young English citizens emigrated to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa rather than help pick up the pieces and pay the debt incurred while fighting the Germans).</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2008/11/19/economic-recovery-plan-for-the-us/comment-page-1/#comment-94156</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1130#comment-94156</guid>
		<description>philg: If it was such a good question, why didn&#039;t you answer it? Assuming that this depression will hit the USA much harder than imagined, is it all right if another country drains it for its skilled workforce? (Of course it hypothetically, but this is how it is now in many African countries, where there are almost no physicians left because of emigration.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>philg: If it was such a good question, why didn&#8217;t you answer it? Assuming that this depression will hit the USA much harder than imagined, is it all right if another country drains it for its skilled workforce? (Of course it hypothetically, but this is how it is now in many African countries, where there are almost no physicians left because of emigration.)</p>
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