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	<title>Comments on: Congestion Pricing and the California Budget Deficit</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/06/03/congestion-pricing-and-the-california-budget-deficit/</link>
	<description>A posting every day; an interesting idea every three months...</description>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/06/03/congestion-pricing-and-the-california-budget-deficit/comment-page-1/#comment-133108</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1358#comment-133108</guid>
		<description>California&#039;s problem began when Enron manipulated energy prices and robbed CA&#039;s 17 billion dollar surplus earned in the dot com boom. When Davis and Bustamante filed a 9 billion dollar lawsuit against Enron to recover the stolen money, Republicans decided to fund a recall. Enter the body builder governor who dropped the Enron lawsuit and cut the vehicle license fee, a move that costs CA 6 billion dollars a year. He also borrowed 15 billion dollars that the state is still paying off. 

California has an incompetent Governor. A state that takes in as much money as CA should not have one of the worst bond ratings in the country. Of course the worse the bond rating, the higher the interest rate and the more money taxpayers must send to Wall St. An accident? I think not. 

Because it takes a 2/3 majority to pass a budget, a number Democrats do not have, a small group of Republican legislators are able to stop the budget process every year and impose their ideology on the majority. They and Arnold will not agree to a budget that does not make deep cuts in education and health care spending. They don’t care if these cuts will have devastating consequences on our standard of life.

In addition, for every dollar that CA sends to the federal government it receives back only 78 cents in services. In other words, CA is subsidizing the rest of the country.  

The media, however, choose to spin this as a spending problem. They love their Schwartzenidiot. I view Arnold as a disaster much like an earthquake, or a fire. When he is gone, we will rebuild.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>California&#8217;s problem began when Enron manipulated energy prices and robbed CA&#8217;s 17 billion dollar surplus earned in the dot com boom. When Davis and Bustamante filed a 9 billion dollar lawsuit against Enron to recover the stolen money, Republicans decided to fund a recall. Enter the body builder governor who dropped the Enron lawsuit and cut the vehicle license fee, a move that costs CA 6 billion dollars a year. He also borrowed 15 billion dollars that the state is still paying off. </p>
<p>California has an incompetent Governor. A state that takes in as much money as CA should not have one of the worst bond ratings in the country. Of course the worse the bond rating, the higher the interest rate and the more money taxpayers must send to Wall St. An accident? I think not. </p>
<p>Because it takes a 2/3 majority to pass a budget, a number Democrats do not have, a small group of Republican legislators are able to stop the budget process every year and impose their ideology on the majority. They and Arnold will not agree to a budget that does not make deep cuts in education and health care spending. They don’t care if these cuts will have devastating consequences on our standard of life.</p>
<p>In addition, for every dollar that CA sends to the federal government it receives back only 78 cents in services. In other words, CA is subsidizing the rest of the country.  </p>
<p>The media, however, choose to spin this as a spending problem. They love their Schwartzenidiot. I view Arnold as a disaster much like an earthquake, or a fire. When he is gone, we will rebuild.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel L. Taylor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/06/03/congestion-pricing-and-the-california-budget-deficit/comment-page-1/#comment-127765</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel L. Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1358#comment-127765</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;With congestion pricing for the highways, employers would have an incentive to adjust working hours, invest in video conferencing systems, etc.&lt;/i&gt;

The cost will, for the most part, fall on individuals who will simply bear a new tax with no benefit. The incentive is not tied directly to the desired behavior, and companies can just say &quot;forget it&quot; and cut wages if they&#039;re taxed directly. If individuals are taxed, companies will completely ignore it.

Compliance costs will be a nightmare. Either reams of forms or expensive GPS trackers employees have to carry in their cars. If the tax isn&#039;t high enough, it won&#039;t cover the cost of the program to generate the tax.

A better option would be to offer tax incentives to employers who implement telecommuting and flex time. It has low compliance costs, it directly ties the incentive to the desired benefit, and it doesn&#039;t give the CA government more money to blow on wasteful programs.

California&#039;s budget problems have nothing to do with low tax revenues, and everything to do with billions in waste.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>With congestion pricing for the highways, employers would have an incentive to adjust working hours, invest in video conferencing systems, etc.</i></p>
<p>The cost will, for the most part, fall on individuals who will simply bear a new tax with no benefit. The incentive is not tied directly to the desired behavior, and companies can just say &#8220;forget it&#8221; and cut wages if they&#8217;re taxed directly. If individuals are taxed, companies will completely ignore it.</p>
<p>Compliance costs will be a nightmare. Either reams of forms or expensive GPS trackers employees have to carry in their cars. If the tax isn&#8217;t high enough, it won&#8217;t cover the cost of the program to generate the tax.</p>
<p>A better option would be to offer tax incentives to employers who implement telecommuting and flex time. It has low compliance costs, it directly ties the incentive to the desired benefit, and it doesn&#8217;t give the CA government more money to blow on wasteful programs.</p>
<p>California&#8217;s budget problems have nothing to do with low tax revenues, and everything to do with billions in waste.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Tate</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/06/03/congestion-pricing-and-the-california-budget-deficit/comment-page-1/#comment-125638</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Tate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 01:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1358#comment-125638</guid>
		<description>I think this is kind of an ingenious idea. Why? I live here in the Bay Area and have watched our voters repeatedly approve bridge-toll increases over the past 10 years, to the point where it now costs $4 to cross most area bridges, $6 for Golden Gate (up from $1/2 when I first moved here in 94 and $2/3 as recently as, oh, 2000?).

If the voters are actually *insisting* they pay more for crumbling bridges that will fail in an earthquake -- sunk costs -- why wouldn&#039;t they pay for the privileged of driving on highways, generally? The bridge toll is already a defacto driving fee for many trips.

Bay Area voters are overwhelmingly liberal, particularly as you get close to the &quot;core&quot; roadways going into in SF and Oakland (less so near San Jose/Silicon Valley). The ones in SF and the East Bay have access to California&#039;s best commuter rail system. Many are young and don&#039;t own cars. The older ones up in Marin lack good transit but are so rich and environmental they would scarcely complain.

A congestion plan would not only drive greater use of public transit, it would -- critically -- free up highway space for industrial cargo. Oakland/Hayward/San Leandro/Emeryville have lost industrial jobs, some of the last ways for blue collar workers to make good money, because companies  can&#039;t ship their goods out, due to highway and railway congestion. So you could get some business support for this.

However it would still be a tough sell, since the pain would be local yet the money would be dispersed statewide. And good luck selling it in LA to even out the impact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is kind of an ingenious idea. Why? I live here in the Bay Area and have watched our voters repeatedly approve bridge-toll increases over the past 10 years, to the point where it now costs $4 to cross most area bridges, $6 for Golden Gate (up from $1/2 when I first moved here in 94 and $2/3 as recently as, oh, 2000?).</p>
<p>If the voters are actually *insisting* they pay more for crumbling bridges that will fail in an earthquake &#8212; sunk costs &#8212; why wouldn&#8217;t they pay for the privileged of driving on highways, generally? The bridge toll is already a defacto driving fee for many trips.</p>
<p>Bay Area voters are overwhelmingly liberal, particularly as you get close to the &#8220;core&#8221; roadways going into in SF and Oakland (less so near San Jose/Silicon Valley). The ones in SF and the East Bay have access to California&#8217;s best commuter rail system. Many are young and don&#8217;t own cars. The older ones up in Marin lack good transit but are so rich and environmental they would scarcely complain.</p>
<p>A congestion plan would not only drive greater use of public transit, it would &#8212; critically &#8212; free up highway space for industrial cargo. Oakland/Hayward/San Leandro/Emeryville have lost industrial jobs, some of the last ways for blue collar workers to make good money, because companies  can&#8217;t ship their goods out, due to highway and railway congestion. So you could get some business support for this.</p>
<p>However it would still be a tough sell, since the pain would be local yet the money would be dispersed statewide. And good luck selling it in LA to even out the impact.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous Dude</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/06/03/congestion-pricing-and-the-california-budget-deficit/comment-page-1/#comment-125413</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous Dude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 03:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1358#comment-125413</guid>
		<description>Given one billion dollars to add one new lane to the 409 freeway in LA, this is yet another reason to reduce immigration, both legal and illegal. If legal immigration was cut back and 1-3+ million illegal aliens were removed from California through employment enforcement and attrition there would be no need for extra freeway lanes and all the other massive costs imposed on native citizens to subsidize our colonization.

Another desperately needed reform is to make the elite and business classes pay the full costs associated with immigration instead of privatizing profits while socializing costs. These include education, health care, justice system, torts against natives (e.g. when illegals kill them in crime, drunk driving, etc), EITC, all future excess governmental obligations like welfare, etc. Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation has demonstrated how most of our current immigrants cost natives much more than they contribute.

California is the quintessential example of how our elites lust for profits and cheap, exploitable labor has dramatically lowered the quality of life for the native citizens.

It will only get much worse if we don&#039;t change our trajectory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given one billion dollars to add one new lane to the 409 freeway in LA, this is yet another reason to reduce immigration, both legal and illegal. If legal immigration was cut back and 1-3+ million illegal aliens were removed from California through employment enforcement and attrition there would be no need for extra freeway lanes and all the other massive costs imposed on native citizens to subsidize our colonization.</p>
<p>Another desperately needed reform is to make the elite and business classes pay the full costs associated with immigration instead of privatizing profits while socializing costs. These include education, health care, justice system, torts against natives (e.g. when illegals kill them in crime, drunk driving, etc), EITC, all future excess governmental obligations like welfare, etc. Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation has demonstrated how most of our current immigrants cost natives much more than they contribute.</p>
<p>California is the quintessential example of how our elites lust for profits and cheap, exploitable labor has dramatically lowered the quality of life for the native citizens.</p>
<p>It will only get much worse if we don&#8217;t change our trajectory.</p>
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		<title>By: philg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/06/03/congestion-pricing-and-the-california-budget-deficit/comment-page-1/#comment-125379</link>
		<dc:creator>philg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 23:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1358#comment-125379</guid>
		<description>Rob: Charging for the real costs of congestion is regressive, like any other charge. A rich person will find paying for the costs of clogging the highway easier than would a poor person. But note that a rich person can already buy his or her way out of congestion to some extent. The rich person can keep a second car with two seats, e.g., a Ferrari, and use the carpool lanes with only two people on board rather than three. The rich person can hire a sycophant to occupy that second seat. The rich person can pay a big premium for a Prius with a carpool lane sticker.

Right now everyone is getting a break on the costs that they impose on others by clogging the highways. Eliminating that break and eliminating the congestion would have some benefits for rich and poor alike. Companies would be able to charge lower prices for some products as transportation time and costs fell (keeping a $200,000 truck and professional driver stuck in traffic is expensive). 

Emissions controls are also regressive. Should we eliminate emissions tests and standards because it makes cars more expensive? A rich person doesn&#039;t mind paying a few hundred dollars extra for a car with a catastrophic converter (as they say down south); that extra money is painful for a poor person. A rich person can afford to trade in a car that fails emissions testing. A poor person might be forced off the highway if his car needs a $1000 engine repair to meet emissions standards. Breathing filthy air and dying of lung cancer is a small price to pay to ensure that everyone in the U.S. has equal access to transportation, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob: Charging for the real costs of congestion is regressive, like any other charge. A rich person will find paying for the costs of clogging the highway easier than would a poor person. But note that a rich person can already buy his or her way out of congestion to some extent. The rich person can keep a second car with two seats, e.g., a Ferrari, and use the carpool lanes with only two people on board rather than three. The rich person can hire a sycophant to occupy that second seat. The rich person can pay a big premium for a Prius with a carpool lane sticker.</p>
<p>Right now everyone is getting a break on the costs that they impose on others by clogging the highways. Eliminating that break and eliminating the congestion would have some benefits for rich and poor alike. Companies would be able to charge lower prices for some products as transportation time and costs fell (keeping a $200,000 truck and professional driver stuck in traffic is expensive). </p>
<p>Emissions controls are also regressive. Should we eliminate emissions tests and standards because it makes cars more expensive? A rich person doesn&#8217;t mind paying a few hundred dollars extra for a car with a catastrophic converter (as they say down south); that extra money is painful for a poor person. A rich person can afford to trade in a car that fails emissions testing. A poor person might be forced off the highway if his car needs a $1000 engine repair to meet emissions standards. Breathing filthy air and dying of lung cancer is a small price to pay to ensure that everyone in the U.S. has equal access to transportation, no?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Schoening</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/06/03/congestion-pricing-and-the-california-budget-deficit/comment-page-1/#comment-125372</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Schoening</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 22:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1358#comment-125372</guid>
		<description>How do you keep congestion pricing from being regressive?

Two people are driving side-by-side on the road.  One is going to his $15/hr job and the next one is earning $150/hr.

Furthermore, it&#039;s much more likely that the person earning $150/hr has more opportunity to work remotely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you keep congestion pricing from being regressive?</p>
<p>Two people are driving side-by-side on the road.  One is going to his $15/hr job and the next one is earning $150/hr.</p>
<p>Furthermore, it&#8217;s much more likely that the person earning $150/hr has more opportunity to work remotely.</p>
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		<title>By: Federico Calboli</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/06/03/congestion-pricing-and-the-california-budget-deficit/comment-page-1/#comment-125267</link>
		<dc:creator>Federico Calboli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1358#comment-125267</guid>
		<description>Oh my. I&#039;ll stay on topic and say a couple of things. In London there is a congestion charge for part of the city center. I would not know how much of the city budget is raised that way but it&#039;s obvious that to implement such scheme you first need to spend money to get a system to 1) enforce the toll and 2) collect it. You also spend money to 3) keep the system running. As you can see (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge#Income_and_costs) the money accumulated is not a lot, surely not enough to run the city on. As for congestion the results are not pant wettingly exciting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge#Traffic_changes). The present mayor of London has also scrapped an extension of the area where congestion charges would apply because it was politically contentious. Making people pay for road use might be a reasonable idea, but it&#039;s political suicide. 

Another place where a toll applies is motorways in Italy (not the South though). While digging out the revenue for that scheme ain&#039;t as easy, I *do* doubt that the revenue is massive. What is well known is that the toll boxes cause massive congestion anytime people move around at one (public holidays). A toll scheme that works should ideally not involve any stop to collect fees or whatever advantage of reducing traffic would be made null.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh my. I&#8217;ll stay on topic and say a couple of things. In London there is a congestion charge for part of the city center. I would not know how much of the city budget is raised that way but it&#8217;s obvious that to implement such scheme you first need to spend money to get a system to 1) enforce the toll and 2) collect it. You also spend money to 3) keep the system running. As you can see (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge#Income_and_costs" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge#Income_and_costs</a>) the money accumulated is not a lot, surely not enough to run the city on. As for congestion the results are not pant wettingly exciting (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge#Traffic_changes)" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge#Traffic_changes)</a>. The present mayor of London has also scrapped an extension of the area where congestion charges would apply because it was politically contentious. Making people pay for road use might be a reasonable idea, but it&#8217;s political suicide. </p>
<p>Another place where a toll applies is motorways in Italy (not the South though). While digging out the revenue for that scheme ain&#8217;t as easy, I *do* doubt that the revenue is massive. What is well known is that the toll boxes cause massive congestion anytime people move around at one (public holidays). A toll scheme that works should ideally not involve any stop to collect fees or whatever advantage of reducing traffic would be made null.</p>
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		<title>By: philg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/06/03/congestion-pricing-and-the-california-budget-deficit/comment-page-1/#comment-125226</link>
		<dc:creator>philg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1358#comment-125226</guid>
		<description>Mike: Congestion pricing is not &quot;taxing people to use roadways&quot;. It is charging people so that they don&#039;t get in someone else&#039;s way and eat up their time. Suppose that the roads were installed for free by a benevolent god. Now suppose that 10 percent of the vehicles are SUVs filled with teenagers going to the mall because they can&#039;t think of another activity to pursue. Traffic would proceed 20 percent faster with this load on the system reduced. Even though nobody had to pay for road construction, it would be well worth the other drivers&#039; money to pay to get those aimless teenagers off the road and out of their way.

Everyone else: I&#039;ve deleted all of the discussion about public versus charter schools because it is off-topic. A posting of the form &quot;The public schools in California are so great that they could become a huge source of revenue and here&#039;s how&quot; would be on-topic (and contradict my original post), but nothing like that has emerged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike: Congestion pricing is not &#8220;taxing people to use roadways&#8221;. It is charging people so that they don&#8217;t get in someone else&#8217;s way and eat up their time. Suppose that the roads were installed for free by a benevolent god. Now suppose that 10 percent of the vehicles are SUVs filled with teenagers going to the mall because they can&#8217;t think of another activity to pursue. Traffic would proceed 20 percent faster with this load on the system reduced. Even though nobody had to pay for road construction, it would be well worth the other drivers&#8217; money to pay to get those aimless teenagers off the road and out of their way.</p>
<p>Everyone else: I&#8217;ve deleted all of the discussion about public versus charter schools because it is off-topic. A posting of the form &#8220;The public schools in California are so great that they could become a huge source of revenue and here&#8217;s how&#8221; would be on-topic (and contradict my original post), but nothing like that has emerged.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Woods</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/06/03/congestion-pricing-and-the-california-budget-deficit/comment-page-1/#comment-125163</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 06:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1358#comment-125163</guid>
		<description>@Daniel Taylor - you nailed this one exactly right.  It&#039;s flat out -wrong- to tax people for using roadways that they have already paid for and are already being massively taxed (gas taxes, etc) to maintain.

CA does not have a revenue problem - we have a spending problem.  As Phil has written about extensively, special interests own the government and have robbed us blind.  Any new money will simply feed the beast and be immediately wasted.  Until we deal with the structural issues: out-of-control spending and unsustainable pay packages for unions, we cannot afford to provide any new fodder for state government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Daniel Taylor &#8211; you nailed this one exactly right.  It&#8217;s flat out -wrong- to tax people for using roadways that they have already paid for and are already being massively taxed (gas taxes, etc) to maintain.</p>
<p>CA does not have a revenue problem &#8211; we have a spending problem.  As Phil has written about extensively, special interests own the government and have robbed us blind.  Any new money will simply feed the beast and be immediately wasted.  Until we deal with the structural issues: out-of-control spending and unsustainable pay packages for unions, we cannot afford to provide any new fodder for state government.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/06/03/congestion-pricing-and-the-california-budget-deficit/comment-page-1/#comment-125047</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 20:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/?p=1358#comment-125047</guid>
		<description>@Andy- No, I didn&#039;t miss your point that “public schools need to be criticized and they need to be improved,” - -I am disagreeing with it.

As an example, if you had said, &quot;the war in Viet Nam needs to be criticized and needs to be improved,&quot; I would say no, it needs to be stopped.

And as far as &quot;You also have stretched my “traditional public high schools HAVE to take everyone: the non-English speakers, the disinterested, the undocumented, etc.” into an attack on foreigners&quot; Really? How? My point isn&#039;t that you were attacking foreigners, but that you were using their forced inclusion as a reason for poor public school performance. (read your own post) 

And now you say &quot;Foreigners” often speak better English than natives and are often much more motivated to learn.&quot; So now that is the problem with public school performance? That they HAVE to take students who are better at English and more motivated than students at charter schools???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Andy- No, I didn&#8217;t miss your point that “public schools need to be criticized and they need to be improved,” &#8211; -I am disagreeing with it.</p>
<p>As an example, if you had said, &#8220;the war in Viet Nam needs to be criticized and needs to be improved,&#8221; I would say no, it needs to be stopped.</p>
<p>And as far as &#8220;You also have stretched my “traditional public high schools HAVE to take everyone: the non-English speakers, the disinterested, the undocumented, etc.” into an attack on foreigners&#8221; Really? How? My point isn&#8217;t that you were attacking foreigners, but that you were using their forced inclusion as a reason for poor public school performance. (read your own post) </p>
<p>And now you say &#8220;Foreigners” often speak better English than natives and are often much more motivated to learn.&#8221; So now that is the problem with public school performance? That they HAVE to take students who are better at English and more motivated than students at charter schools???</p>
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