Comments on: the pro se nomenclature problem

By: Enemyofthestate

Enemyofthestate — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:11:37 +0000

As a sui juris; practicing pro se and paralegal (without giving legal advice, of course) able to understand the mental and emotional processes that the average “natural person” goes through when a party to any action, un-trusting of “attorneys” for whatever reason – since it is not “us” that designate what we are, but the court or by statute;

LEAVE IT ALONE.

Those who have gotten to the point of not having confidence in the “advice” we get from so-called “professionals” whose loyalty is to the BAR an/or the court, as Officers of the Court, and feel we can do a better job of it than those who get paid a lot more than they’re worth, we deserve the label we have and we wear it proudly.

(Incidentally, an even number of pro se v. “represented defendants” have either been convicted or acquitted in our system that looks down on us, so; me thinks that we have earned our place in the discussion).

license, license… we don’t need no stink’n license….

Besides, who’s going to better protect our interests and rights, us or a disinterested third party with questionable competence?

You need to get to more important topics than this.

Ciao (Not Plain English)

By: shlep: the Self-Help Law ExPress » Blog Archive » Delso ghostwriter update

Fri, 23 Mar 2007 21:51:41 +0000

[...] On an unrelated but haunting topic, a couple days ago, I noticed an excellent example of the problems with pro se nomenclature that I fretted over last November. After coining a rule of thumb in the body of the post: “If it’s Latin, it’s probably not Plain English,” I added a Comment explaining: “Foreign terms are fine when they are already well-understand and long-standing — or when used among specialists. But, when the general public is involved, real English seems like a worthy goal. That’s especially true when a term like “pro se” can so easily be confused with the far-better known (but often also misunderstood) “per se.” [...]

By: shlep: the Self-Help Law ExPress » Blog Archive » pro se recycling goes Over and Above

Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:19:02 +0000

[...] Finally, it is worth pointing out that many of the Comments at Fark.com seem to prove our point in the posting the pro se nomenclature problem. The average person simply does not know what the term “pro se” means. Even though Above the Law and Overlawyered.com stressed that the lawsuit was brough by Ward pro se, many Farksters rail at his supposed lawyer for briging such a meritless lawsuit. [...]

By: david giacalone

david giacalone — Wed, 08 Nov 2006 03:43:00 +0000

I really appreciate your taking the time to respond at length, Mary. I agree that we often overlook the out-of-court [transactional, advisory] legal needs of consumers. This post was, of course, focused on people who are in court as a party. Outside of the court context, “self-helpers” or “do-it-your-selfers,” or “self-counseled” all work for me.

Foreign terms are fine when they are already well-understand and long-standing — or among specialists. But, when the general public is involved, real English seems like a worthy goal. That’s especially true when a term like “pro se” can so easily be confused with the far-better known (but often also misunderstood) “per se.” Thanks for having a discussion, it makes our weblog a more interesting place to be.

By: MaryWhisner

MaryWhisner — Wed, 08 Nov 2006 01:52:18 +0000

A problem I have with a lot of the terms is that they overemphasize the litigation aspect of law. “Self-represented litigant” implies litigation, as do “self-represented” and “pro se,” for that matter. But lawyers do more than “represent” — they also counsel and advise.

If a person who lacks formal legal training seeks information to make decisions about what sort of business entity to use or how to draft a will, maybe we should say the person is self-advised or self-counseled. One self-help publisher is called Self-Counsel Press, and that makes some sense. Most broadly, the person is “self-helped” — and hence the Self-Help Legal ExPress.

I don’t share your dislike of all foreign terms and acronyms. Sometimes they just work. Sometimes I say “Gesundheit!” when my friends sneeze, and I know just what is expected when I’m asked to RSVP to an invitation (even though that’s an acronym for a French phrase, of all things). English-speaking musicians learn that “D.C.” means “go back to the top” and “D.S.” means “go back to that funny looking squiggle” and many don’t know or remember that the terms are from the Italian “da capo” and “del seigno.”

I think that “pro se” might just be useful enough to allow its use to indicate that someone is filing his or her own papers in litigation.